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In the event of united Ireland could DUP attract a significant vote in the Republic / 26 Counties ?

11920222425

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 78,733 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    We can decide on that once there is a plan in place for what a UI looks like.

    What is beyond doubt is that majorities want to see the proposals - majorities in both jurisdictions want a referendum, if there is a referendum there will be proposals/plans.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,195 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    Article in the Sunday Times at the weekend, quoting a Department of Social Protection report that integration of the social welfare systems will cost €22bn per year in the event of a united Ireland.

    Various cheaper alternatives would require cuts in rates for some people.

    It is interesting that this work has been done. Hopefully, it will be published so people will get a sense of the increased taxation that a united Ireland would bring.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,195 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    https://sluggerotoole.com/2025/02/24/can-we-see-a-direction-of-travel-from-polling-on-remaining-or-reunifying/

    Interesting analysis of the polling data.

    Safe to say we ain't seeing a border poll anytime soon.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 78,733 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Varadkar doubling down on his views.
    There are many including myself, who have said there is a change in attitude happening and this is a manifestation of it.
    There will be a phase of denying no doubt but the momentum continues.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,195 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    Soft opinion pieces from sympathetic voices are one thing, the harsh realities of the opinion polls not moving and papers that demonstrate a yearly €22bn cost of integrating social welfare say another.

    Developments in the North don't help.

    https://www.rte.ie/news/ulster/2025/0303/1499876-ukraine-missiles-belfast/

    Here is MON once again failing in her own objective of being a First Minister for All. The jobs created have been welcomed by local politicians who just happen to be of the Unionist tradition but MON couldn't help herself. That is on top of her incredibly small-minded decision to boycott the US.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 78,733 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    I guess some people don't subscribe to jobs at any cost to your principles.

    If you are anti war or neutral, then be that.
    Being a First Minister For All' does not mean being dishonest.



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 44,451 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    I guess some people don't subscribe to jobs at any cost to your principles.

    While nobody wants munitions factories, it currently is a necessary evil for them to be made given the ongoing attack from Russia.

    A £1.6 Bn deal boosting employment in NI should be welcomed despite the end product which we hope won't be necessary but know that it will be.

    O'Neill's comments that the international community "should always be to work towards negotiation and peace settlements" shows a rather naive perspective on what is happening. If Ukraine is defensively weak, does she really think that Putin will stop his attack to hold peace discussions?

    If you are anti war or neutral, then be that.
    Being a First Minister For All' does not mean being dishonest.

    Does being neutral mean supporting and glorifying terrorists?
    Will MON, as a "First Minister For All" glorify and support Loyalist terrorists?

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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 78,733 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Contrast this stance to a Green stance on LNG plants? Should we not welcome the employment and benefits of an LNG plant? Is it 'a necessary evil'?

    I don't necessarily agree with her position or the Green one, but they have a right to express their views.

    I've said this before and I'll say it again, MoN and a large part of who she represents do not see those they remember as 'terrorists' as Gavin Robinson and those he represents don't see the BA and Loyalists as 'terrorists' or Michael Martin and who he represents don't see those who fought for our freedom as 'terrorists'. They all terrorised people here at various times.

    Sooner or later the conversation on 'how do you allow people to commemorate their dead' has to be and will be had.



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 44,451 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    Contrast this stance to a Green stance on LNG plants? Should we not welcome the employment and benefits of an LNG plant? Is it 'a necessary evil'?

    I don't necessarily agree with her position or the Green one, but they have a right to express their views.

    This is just Whataboutery.
    MON is the First Minister representing the entire electorate of NI. Her primary focus should be on that office and not as the leader of SF in NI.

    She either welcomes investment & jobs in NI, despite the purpose of the end product or else she is displaying an inability to do the job.

    I've said this before and I'll say it again, MoN and a large part of who she represents do not see those they remember as 'terrorists' as Gavin Robinson and those he represents don't see the BA and Loyalists as 'terrorists' or Michael Martin and who he represents don't see those who fought for our freedom as 'terrorists'. They all terrorised people here at various times.

    Sooner or later the conversation on 'how do you allow people to commemorate their dead' has to be and will be had.

    Robinson & Martin are not the First Minister celebrating terrorists whose victims are still suffering from the acts of those terrorists. Again you are just deflecting from MON's inability to be an impartial leader or one who can empathise with the victims and their ongoing suffering.

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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 78,733 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    She hasn't blocked the jobs. She has given an opinion on the jobs and what is being produced. Every other leader in the free world 'gives their opinion' including her partner in office, who is doing and saying what she believes is the right thing. Same as any other party leader will do on their core principles. That is why I mentioned the Greens, it is not whataboutery to say that. It's a statement of actual fact.

    Robinson & Martin are not the First Minister celebrating terrorists whose victims are still suffering from the acts of those terrorists. Again you are just deflecting from MON's inability to be an impartial leader or one who can empathise with the victims and their ongoing suffering.

    Robinson and his predecessors have not even owned up to their party's involvement in 'terror' and militant organisations, does not call out similar memorials in his own community and of course celebrates the BA every single year. All of whom created 'victims' too. FF and FG had no issues celebrating those who terrorised and killed when victims were still alive and suffering. That is what happens after all major conflicts and wars.

    The 'FM for all' is an attempt to begin healing some of that divide, and has been partially successful, it is not and never was going to be a 'capitulation' to viewing things through a Unionist or British lens.

    It's still a divided society, and as one, still has much work to be done. Part of that is getting to a place where both sides can remember with respect and empathy.



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  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 44,451 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    She hasn't blocked the jobs. She has given an opinion on the jobs and what is being produced. Every other leader in the free world 'gives their opinion' including her partner in office, who is doing and saying what she believes is the right thing. Same as any other party leader will do on their core principles. That is why I mentioned the Greens, it is not whataboutery to say that. It's a statement of actual fact.

    I didn't say or suggest that she blocked the jobs - another typo Francie?
    I commented on how she did not celebrate inward investment into NI and how this would help employment in NI - which is part of her job as First Minister. She is welcome to have her personal opinion but this should not be the formal anouncement as First Mnister.

    Robinson and his predecessors have not even owned up to their party's involvement in 'terror' and militant organisations, does not call out similar memorials in his own community and of course celebrates the BA every single year. All of whom created 'victims' too. FF and FG had no issues celebrating those who terrorised and killed when victims were still alive and suffering. That is what happens after all major conflicts and wars.

    Again with the whataboutery - we're not talking about Robinson because he is not the FM!

    MON wants to take a stand against the US turning its back on Ukraine but it is clear that she does not want Ukraine to get help from Europe if it means that the defence mechanisms are manufactured in NI.
    She is happy to celebrate her war against the British. She is just against every other war?
    She is a hypocrite and yet again showing that she is unfit for the role as FM.

    The 'FM for all' is an attempt to begin healing some of that divide, and has been partially successful, it is not and never was going to be a 'capitulation' to viewing things through a Unionist or British lens.

    It's still a divided society, and as one, still has much work to be done. Part of that is getting to a place where both sides can remember with respect and empathy.

    It will remain divided if the FM (and DFM) celebrate terrorism and the terrorist thugs behind it.

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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 78,733 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    which is part of her job as First Minister.

    Where does it say this in her job description? This is again signs that you don't fully understand what the NI Assembly/Executive is, it is not an autonomous 'government' like we have. These jobs have not come as a result of what a 'government' of NI wanted. They have come because of something the actual government of the UK wants. She gave her opinion on that, as Little-Pengelly will give her opinion on i.e. the Westminster imposed Protocol etc

    Again with the whataboutery - we're not talking about Robinson because he is not the FM!

    Ok, apply the same comment to ELP, the deputy FM.

    MON wants to take a stand against the US turning its back on Ukraine

    SF are making a stand against Trumps intentions for Gaza.

    but it is clear that she does not want Ukraine to get help from Europe if it means that the defence mechanisms are manufactured in NI.
    She is happy to celebrate her war against the British. She is just against every other war?
    She is a hypocrite and yet again showing that she is unfit for the role as FM.

    She said:

     the focus of the international community "should always be to work towards negotiation and peace settlements".

    She represents a party and a community that has been able to do that.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,195 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    The Greens never claimed to be a First Minister for All or to represent anything other than their own agenda. They are therefore not hypocritical.

    It is by her own words and her words alone that MON is being judged. She put the idea out there of being a First Minister for All. Clearly, she didn't mean it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 78,733 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    A 'FM for all' includes speaking for her own community which is a part of that 'all'.
    A 'deputy FM for all' would accept that and speak for her part of the 'all'.
    Nobody is issuing a block or a decree or a petition of concern on this. The Assembly is a place for opinions/views to be expressed.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,195 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    No, it doesn't include speaking for one community. There are plenty of other SF Ministers to do that.

    Don't be looking at or whatabouting the DFM. The claim to be a "First Minister for All" is a claim that came from the mouth of MON. I didn't believe it at the time, neither did most observers in the South, and we are just pointing that out now.

    She is hoisted by her own petard and no pointing at others will change that.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 78,733 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    I guess you were not listening when she defined what she meant by a FM for all.
    She is expressing an opinion as all party leaders do in the Assembly. Those who think

    the focus of the international community "should always be to work towards negotiation and peace settlements".

    do not just come from 'one' community. they come form all across society in NI, Nationalist, Unionist and neither, just as they do here.

    Not for the first time, you see this as a slight on the Unionist community, the fear of offending the community you believe must not be offended strikes deep in the partitionist heart.

    What O'Neill has gone out of her way to do in reaching out to that 'community' in other ways is second to none in NI political life. But of course you don't have the charity to see that.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,524 ✭✭✭Francis McM


    You say Michelle O'Neill has gone out of her way to reach out to the Unionist community? Do not be so silly or hypocritical.

    Michelle O’Neill had the chance to write a new chapter in Northern Ireland’s future by deliberately avoiding involvement in celebrating the IRA’s murder campaign. Instead she chose the path of least integrity by honouring the pIRA "armed struggle" in different ways. She applauded those involved in a campaign that brought death and misery to both its victims and to its perpetrators. As someone else wrote "It would be unthinkable that the city of Boston would allow a celebratory commemoration of the Boston Marathon Bombers’ successful murders of its citizens. It is equally unthinkable that America would tolerate a celebration or public remembrance – call it what you will – of the 9/11 Twin Towers’ and Pentagon attackers. Nor would Britain allow a triumphal honouring of the Manchester bomber(s) – which ones, you may well ask, the IRA bombers or the IS bombers? All terroristic bombings are terrible and never to be repeated." Why should Northern Ireland's FM celebrate bombers or killers, or say there was no alternative when there clearly was?

    She reached out to the other community, you say.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 78,733 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    So are commemorations and celebrations of the actions of the British Army and their colluders ok?
    You are still a part of the problem if you only want to stop the commemorations of one side in a conflict all sides have said via the GFA. they were partly responsible for.
    'There are things we did we would rather not have done'* worked for the British, so that works for all combatants here and the sooner you come to terms with that and accept all sides have to be allowed remember their dead, the better for you.

    *A comment by the Commander in Chief of the British Armed Forces, Queen Elizabeth 2nd.




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,524 ✭✭✭Francis McM


    Given that probably hundreds of thousands of people served in the security forces in N.I. over many decades, it is not unreasonable to conclude 99.9% of them never murdered anyone, never planted any bombs, never abducted or disappeared anyone. So what if one person from UK said There are things we did we would rather not have done'.

    She did not say there was no alternative to the loyalist para-militaries, or condone them. Or attend any of their funerals etc. Instead her government captured thousands of them, tried them, jailed them.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,534 ✭✭✭Suckler


    Given the sectarianism within the security services and that many loyalist paramilitaries relied on security forces for weapons, ammunition, intelligence and the ability to turn a blind eye as & when suited; you're continued whitewashing of them is always incorrect.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,524 ✭✭✭Francis McM


    The pIRA were better funded with weapons, ammunition, intelligence and as we all know from the Smithwick's tribunal for example, the Gardai were no strangers to collusion, so of course there were cases of sectarianism in the security forces on both sides of the border.

    It would be unthinkable that the leading politician in the city of Boston would allow a celebratory commemoration of the Boston Marathon Bombers’ successful murders of its citizens. It is equally unthinkable that America would tolerate a celebration or public remembrance – call it what you will – of the 9/11 Twin Towers’ and Pentagon attackers. Nor would Britain allow a triumphal honouring of the Manchester bomber(s) – which ones, you may well ask, the IRA bombers or the IS bombers? So why does Michelle O'Neill honour pIRA, who detonated tens of thousands of bombs, killing many? FrancieBrady even thinks she "reached out" to the other community!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,534 ✭✭✭Suckler


    The IRA and other groups, were not better funded than the security forces of Northern Ireland or the British Army; to put that down in black and white again shows the limits of your knowledge and tenuous relationship with the truth.

    The, again rehashed, example of the Smithwick tribunal in no way demonstrates a comparable level of collusion nor sectarianism between continuous Northern Irish security and policing institutions. It's a failing attempted you've continued to utilise; 'if you haven't got the stats, just make the stats you have seem applicable'.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 78,733 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady



    Given almost all, if not all security forces had to be gotten rid of because their reputation was so sullied the continued denials are bizarre.

    The GFA was the watershed the DUP and it’s support hate, where the British finally accepted their responsibilities for their part in the conflict.
    The DUP continue to think their denials of involvement with several paramilitary groups is successful. It isn’t, the history is there.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,153 ✭✭✭mazdamiatamx5


    I can't believe this stupid thread is still active.

    Oh no, wait, I started it. Great contributions to my excellent thread guys, keep up the good work!



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 44,451 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    Mod: the two of you are just back from bans and yis are straight into this crap (one moreso than the other). I'll make it easy to understand - any more bickering like this (or anything I perceive to be bickering, or goading or anything similar) in any thread in Politics and I'll permanently ban you without any further discussion. I'm sick of it tbh!

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  • Posts: 0 ✭✭ [Deleted User]


    If the British monarchy gets overthrown by angry citizens and the United Kingdom breaks apart into a Scottish Republic and an English Republic, would the DUP still have any support in Northern Ireland itself, let alone in the rest of Ireland?

    Because I now find that scenario more likely than a border poll that results in the citizens of Northern Ireland voting for reunification with the rest of Ireland.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 78,733 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Whatever happens constitutionally, those the DUP represent are not going to go away. I would imagine there will be a period that will see Unionism intensify as an ideology.
    The DUP will morph into what it's electorate wants it to be imo and as unionists get used to the new constitutional arrangements the DUP will attempt to broaden it's reach across the island. Like every political party that has ever been on this island they will 'evolve' or die.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,524 ✭✭✭Francis McM


    In the hypothetical case of a United Ireland, would groups like Kneecap instead of urging their impressionable young followers to "Kill a Tory MP" instead urge their fans to kill a Unionist politician, as in the past the lads in balaclavas did not differentiate between killing a Tory MP, a Northern Unionist MP or even a FG politician here - they killed them all?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,962 ✭✭✭BENDYBINN


    the brits are smart……the north to be kept an economic wasteland so the southerners don’t want it



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 78,733 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    I think in the aftermath of Brexit - and the way they were lied to and their loyalty and allegiance was thrown to wolves basically - that many unionists are figuring out that the British just don't care what happens them at all. Boom or bust.



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