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Obesity as a Disease - Medication

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 343 ✭✭LastApacheInjun


    Just a quick update on my own progress - I came off Ozempic and started Mounjaro about six weeks ago. My GP suggested I should start on the 7.5mg dose as I was already on Ozempic, but I was a little uncomfortable doing that. So I titrated up to the 7.5mg over a few weeks. I've started to lose weight again, and have lost 7lbs in the past three weeks. So that's 28lbs gone, or a 14% loss, since my start weight around this time last year. I'm only on my first week of the 7.5mg dose and I'm finding the appetite suppression and cravings suppression good, so I'll stick on this dose until I feel like I need to go upwards.



  • Posts: 1,167 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    I'd counter with why wait then, let's get the benefits started now and switch to the newer meds as they come on-line. Even limit it to people with existing conditions linked to their weight (BP, cholesterol, physical injuries etc)

    I mean I understand your post, completely, and know that is exactly what they are doing but it's so damn shortsighted (and only really hurts less well off people)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 343 ✭✭LastApacheInjun


    I do agree. I'd imagine these very conversations are happening within the Drug Payment Scheme departments at the moment. It's ridiculous that only Saxenda, a more expensive, less efficient, less well tolerated drug is available on the scheme and even then it's only to people suffering from Level 2 Obesity with two concurrent medical conditions that can get it. At least make all three medicines available to that same cohort and give people the choice.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,289 ✭✭✭jackboy


    It's not ethical to approve a drug for use when there is already a cheaper safer alternative available I.e. healthy diet. We don't know the long term effects of taking these drugs for obesity, that is another reason to hold off for another 10 years.

    There is every chance there will be a future scandal over the widespread use of these for obesity with the health of large numbers of people destroyed.

    These should be restricted to those who really need them. Tax payers certainly should not be paying for a large chunk of the population to be on these.



  • Posts: 1,167 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Ozempic and Saxenda are already on DPS just not for this wider use.

    Wegovy has been licenced exactly for this purpose.

    Also, diet? I know people playing rugby who are training 7 days a week and eat healthy foods, just too much of it. They literally are never full



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,289 ✭✭✭jackboy


    I doubt there is many playing rugby on these drugs.



  • Posts: 1,167 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Good strawman. The fact is that these are an example of people who are active and eat good food but simply eat far more than they should, they exact reason these drugs are effective.

    Your comment around them having health effects and should not be allowed on DPS? Ozempic and Saxenda are on DPS just restricted. Wegovy not on DPS but licenced for weightloss.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,289 ✭✭✭jackboy


    It was you who brought rugby into it so not sure where you are going with the strawman comment. I still don't understand the relevance of your rugby discussion. They eat large amounts because they want to put on and maintain loads of weight!.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Presumably we should unapprove lots of drugs for cancer, heart disease, hypertension, Type 2 diabetes and lots more, given that there is already a cheaper safer alternative - healthy diet, cut out smoking and alcohol, take exercise?



  • Posts: 1,167 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Because I was pointing to men playing a high cardio/endurance sport with gym sessions who eat healthy foods and do not lose fat. They want to gain muscle, I know loads of them who want to lose fat

    Your simple premise is "Eat less" in a thread dedicated to medications which prove that this idea is not a level playing field, where many people never get the simple "Shut off" signal from their bodies.

    "Eat less" does not work in a real world scenario, so you are wrong there, even bringing some random "Ethics" spin on it

    Semaglutide is on the DPS for diabetics, yet is only licenced for weightloss not DPS. Saxenda is on the DPS for weight loss but has stupid conditions applied. So your nonsense about "safety" also goes out the window.

    Simply put, your "Eat less" comment makes it quite clear that you view the medication as cheating and the people looking for it as just being lazy or lacking will power



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,289 ✭✭✭jackboy


    Pharma companies spend vast sums of money all the time developing drugs that work but are never approved, due to the fact that treatments already exist that work as well. Some drugs get through the net, maybe these ones.

    We do not have long term data to show these drugs are safe or even work for obesity after many years of usage. Obviously the only way to get the data is from people using them for weight loss for many years. In the meantime we need balance, prescribe them for the most serious of cases not a large percentage of the population.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 343 ✭✭LastApacheInjun


    Honestly, going on diets is half the reason overweight and obese people are in that situation in the first place.

    People need to do their research before going on these drugs, but also those in the "just eat less" brigade also need to do a bit of reading before they make comment. The simple fact is that our bodies are not designed to lose weight - quite the opposite. Our bodies are designed to hold on to extra weight. All the scientific research has concluded that calorie deficit diets will result in losing fat in the short to medium term, but for 90% of people, the body will respond by reducing the metabolism, increasing hunger hormones, reducing fullness hormones and increasing dopamine reward for high calorie foods until it has brought you back to your original weight (and in most cases, a little bit more). The cycles of diet - regain - diet - regain - diet - regain overtime in being overweight or being diagnosed with Obesity. There are other things at play of course - sedentary lifestyles, changes in food production so that you get a higher dopamine release or less fullness hormones for certain foods. But the diet-regain cycle is a large part of it.

    It is absolutely correct to say that the long term effects, if any, of GLP1 drugs on non-diabetic patients has not yet become apparent. However, it's not correct for people to say these are new drugs. They have been prescribed for weight loss for ten years, and for diabetes for twenty years. As Johann Hari succintly put it (and I'm paraphrasing) "if GLP1 drugs gave you horns, the diabetics would have horns already".

    What we definitely do know about is the long term effects of Obesity. With all the recent body positivity movements (and nothing against them as long as the person is healthy) people can bury their heads in the sand regarding the real effects on your health that Obesity causes. If the GLP1 medication allows you to lose 10% of your body weight, you reduce your chances of developing Type 2 diabetes by 90%, heart disease by 70% and all cancers by 40%.

    Of course everyone should try diet and exercise first. Perhaps you are one of the lucky 10% where your body adjusts to weight loss and you are able to maintain the weight loss long term. But if repeated attempts to maintain weight loss through diet and exercise have failed - not only failed, put you in a worse health position than you started - medication should be an option. And it shouldn't only be an option for the rich.



  • Posts: 1,167 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    So you are back to "Eat less" and that these drugs made it through rigorous testing, by accident. There is NO effective long term weight loss for the average obese person. You can not train away a bad diet and the bad diet is hardwired into their body's signal pathways

    They have been in use for over 10 years now for millions of people and clinical trials before that, we have plenty of research done on them.

    You're, quite simply, empirically wrong unless you are hiding a PhD and research from us. Or even someone else's research? I would happily read your peer reviewed evidence.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,289 ✭✭✭jackboy


    I never mentioned Eat less. I referred to a healthy diet, which is something very different.

    Hope these drugs work out in the long term but it will be many years yet before we know if they work or are safe for obesity. Clinical trials are time based for good reason, so that drugs can actually get to market reasonably fast. It is understood though that the risk of longer term effects being undetected during the trials is a risk accepted. That is why I would be nervous of a large block of the population going on these drugs, it would be most unusual.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,318 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    GLP-1 agonists have been on the market since 2005. They didn't just appear in the last couple of years. Ozempic was ffa approved in 2017 and 2018 in Europe.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,289 ✭✭✭jackboy


    We are now looking at putting a large percentage of the population on these medications long term for obesity. Most of these people are not seriously ill, sure they are on the road to that but they are not there yet.

    This Is an extreme and highly unusual intervention on health at a population level.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,318 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail




  • Posts: 1,167 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Sure Jan...

    Healthy diet? All diets are unhealthy if you don't get the signal to stop



  • Posts: 1,167 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Ahh those goalposts are slippery... They keep moving.

    Being obese is seriously ill

    There have been millions of people using them all through the testing phase to now, we have excellent data on their use

    Please provide peer reviewed research



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 3,093 ✭✭✭nachouser


    Something something fluoride.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,042 ✭✭✭smallgarden


    If looking for a prescription from GP what's the best value/cheapest of the options at the moment. I had a quick chat with my GP and they said if I can afford it they'd clinically recommend it.

    Are there still problems with supply. There's not much point in having a prescription if it's not available. I've seen mention of Corry's in the North but that seems to have gone up in price.

    I've seen articles from last October of Ozempic being €150 per month. Saxenda and others seem to be more expensive



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 76 ✭✭lenan


    Ozempic seems to be the cheapest, some issue with first dose shortage. I had sourced a pharmacy that had it in stock but GP refused to prescribe it for me. Started on saxenda instead. I'd go in person and talk to pharmacists rather than phone call.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Has anyone found any solutions to disposal of used pens and needles? They're all going into a sharps box at present, but I'm wondering what to do as it fills up.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 58,510 ✭✭✭✭Necro


    Nope unfortunately I would love suggestions on this myself.

    In terms of my own progress I started on the 0.25 dosage in late January and have moved up to 1mg now have to see doc about whether I need to move up further again now soon.

    Weight loss has shocked even me I had tried everything before this and nothing worked, dieting, exercise and basically starving myself and weight loss was minimal to say the least.

    Have lost 8.6kg off my starting weight since starting Ozempic. I feel so much better even at that even though I've a good bit to go yet to hit target weight.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,205 ✭✭✭✭Mellor


    Sharps box and proper disposal of sharps box. It's medical waste really.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 343 ✭✭LastApacheInjun


    Ozempic is approx €140-150 per month for the 0.25 up to 1mg pens. It only goes up to 1mg as it is the brand name Novo Nordisk put on the medication intended for diabetes patients. 1mg is the therapeutic dose for diabetics, and therefore it doesn't come in higher concentrations.

    Wegovy, which is the same medication but a different brand name (intended for obesity patients), is also now available here. I've heard varying prices for the higher doses (1.5-2.4mg) with some pharmacies charging €250 for the highest dose.

    Mounjaro, which is a slightly different medication and made by Eli Lilly, is also available here. Pharmacies here are a complete rip off. €220 for the starting dose moving up to over €300 in some pharmacies for the highest dose. It is much better value to order it from the North. I get mine from Corrys chemists, which charge approx €180 for the starting dose and it goes up to €220 for the highest dose. That includes the €20 for next day DPD delivery. However, I believe Corrys are not taking on any new patients. Belcoo pharmacy are also similar value, and I believe are still open for new business. Drop them an email.

    Saxenda I believe is around €250 a month, if you are paying for it out of pocket. If you meet the criteria (BMI 35+) you may be able to get it on the drug payment scheme, thus only paying €80 a month. If you are paying privately I would choose to go on one of the other medications. Wegovy and Mounjaro are cheaper, are once a week rather than daily injections, and have better weight loss results.

    As for my own progress, I swapped from Ozempic to Mounjaro at the start of March this year. Weight loss has started again, since plateauing on Ozempic for eight months. The weight loss is slow though - I have 11lbs over 12 weeks. Still, slow and steady will win the race. I have titrated slowly upwards and am on 8.5mg at the moment. I may stick on that dose for another 2-3 weeks if the weight loss remains steady. I have a bit of leeway to move upwards as the highest dose is 15mg. That said I'm hoping I don't need the highest dose as €220 a month is a bit spendy.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,079 ✭✭✭✭NIMAN


    Could you explain a part of your reply to someone who doesn't know much about these drugs.

    You say you starved yourself and yet that didn't work, but now the weight is coming off using the jabs?

    Afaik, the jabs basically take away your appetite to eat? They suppress your desire for food? They don't have any other ingredients which cause weight loss. So it's basically the lack of eating food which brings your weight down.

    So how comes starving yourself didn't have the same effect?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1 Patdieon3110


    hi . I’ve been Ozempic for 5 months now . My Doc has changed me to Mounjaro. I’ve done one month of that and it’s looking good . My chemist has advised me I might be better sourcing from the North. I just emailed Corrys . They’re not delivering to south anymore. Any other ideas where I might get it ? I’ve a full script from Doc .



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 978 ✭✭✭thejuggler


    I’ve done a year on ozempic working up to 1mg. Swapped to mounjaro recently. Did a month at 2.5. Zero effects. Moving up to 5.0 this week



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,210 ✭✭✭Escapees


    Some of the same thoughts went through my head on this too. I know it's going somewhat off topic but I know several people who are quite overweight and always on diets, yet they 'cheat' all the time and then claim the diets don't work. It's not necessarily a lack of willpower in their case, but clearly apparent psychological issues (trauma etc ) that they haven't addressed. I am all for the use of weight loss medication for those whose health would benefit from it, but ideally only after the obvious alternatives have been tried such as counselling etc.



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