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Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,583 ✭✭✭ersatz


    I always assumed that CCs were designed, in part at least, to compensate provinces for the lack of the use of their own players due to IRFU player management. Leinster essentially need another 12 players to fill in for Ireland players who are unavailable for many of their league games. Spreading that money around more evenly just creates another financial problem. It comes down to funding for player development, but also some sort of system to hold provinces accountable for doing it badly. Do it well you end up with central contracts, do it badly and you're wasting money that other provinces are doing more with.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 5,975 ✭✭✭fonecrusher1


    I think we're going down a slippery slope here when people start questioning other peoples level of support for Irish rugby to be honest. If someone goes to more games than someone else does that mean they have a more valid or relevant opinion? Does that mean they automatically 'know more' about the game? Complete rubbish.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,292 ✭✭✭Paul Smeenus


    All players are IRFU players. I'm not sure CCs make any sense at this stage, or are anything other than a distraction.

    There are plenty of players out there on PONI contracts, with the central IRFU paying varying amounts of the player's contract. There's no clear delineation, so why bother with these titles?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 929 ✭✭✭johnh6767


    can someone start a new Ireland support board which isn’t a provincial obsessed turf war travesty , I feel the excessive and damaging 10 debate has ruined it and we’re now in a race to the bottom with insults normalised



  • Administrators Posts: 56,303 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    Mod: I am growing fairly weary of people dropping in and making these sort of posts, with the suggestion that anything negative posted about the team or a player is provincialism or unfair etc etc.

    This is a discussion forum, it is going to hold a variety of views. If you see an actual insult, report it.

    If you come here to make posts like "this place is terrible", "forum has gone to the dogs" expect to be carded and / or banned.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 396 ✭✭CalmaftertheGav


    You could say that hiring a new attack at this stage could also be a risk.


    Like someone else said, the issue seems to be more mental than the system necessarily being an issue.

    We must remember Schmidt had Leinster playing the best attacking rugby in Europe but then when he came into the Ireland team suddenly we were as expansive as copper…(thanks Squidge rugby!). And on the flip side, when Mike Catt took over I don’t think anyone could have ever imagined Ireland’s attack being as strong as it’s turned out…so in some cases some set ups just work for coaches and some don’t…I’m of the view that if the Irish coaches are happy with him then I’m more than happy to stick with him, especially since he’s been in the set up for only 1 year.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 32,987 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    I think they should be feeling slightly more than pressure. Though apparently they are somewhat in line for a promotion instead based on some reports.



  • Administrators Posts: 56,303 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    Schmidt had Leinster playing attacking rugby, came to Ireland and introduced a fairly basic game plan based on kicking the ball. This brought great success for Ireland, but by 2019 other teams had figured us out.

    Farrell came in and changed it, and again this brought great success.

    We are at a similar juncture, except this time the head coach isn't changing. It was not a mental issue then and it is not a mental issue now.

    Can Goodman deliver the change Ireland need? I am sceptical.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,583 ✭✭✭ersatz


    But regardless of what the funding is called its still likely to end up with the province supplying more player to Ireland being compensated more than the others. Ulster have a few players under an IRFU managed minutes regime while Leinster have a dozen+, meaning that province is having to find other players to cover at greater expense. This was the issue that undermined French rugby for years, and arguably English Rigby too. One way or another Leisnter will get more money out of any arrangement as long as they supply most of the players to the nat team. I do agree that the CC system is counter productive though, and well past its sell by date.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 14,061 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    I never understood why Schmidt decided to be so conservative. Most of his team, certainly the backs, were Leinster players, who he has coached up. Always felt it was an indictment of his coaching that he felt he couldn't get lads playing the way he wanted. He doesn't have Australia playing reductive footy.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,770 ✭✭✭Former Former Former


    Yeah there are two scenarios;

    1. IRFU pays the contracts directly as per the current CC system.
    2. IRFU gives money to each province based on the numbers of international players they have, but each player is contracted directly to the province.

    The net result is exactly the same, but the optics of scenario 2 are much, much worse from the "IRFU are only interested in Leinster" perspective because suddenly the IRFU aren't giving money to 12 Ireland players, they're giving the money to Leinster. There would be an absolute meltdown.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,292 ✭✭✭Paul Smeenus


    Yeah, I certainly don't disagree with your first point. I'd be quite happy if every contract was "an IRFU contract" and we didn't know about any central/provincial payment breakdown. You then wouldn't have non-Leinster fans wailing "why do only the Leinster favourites get central contracts??" and you wouldn't have Leinster fans wailing "why should other provinces be rewarded for failure??" and that's win-win.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,583 ✭✭✭ersatz


    Right, and this begs the question, at what point do optics and fan sentiment determine how the IRFU approaches the funding problem, like how sensitive is the IRFU to public opinion? Thats a bit of a slippery slope because, yes, people are pissed off, but they also don't really know wtf they're talking about. The priority for the union is A) keep winning & B) keep building from the bottom up. I'm not sure where on the list ?) keep fans happy, is.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,292 ✭✭✭Paul Smeenus


    I was going to say I don't think public opinion should be a priority but then equally, the only reason we have Connacht now is because of fan pressure.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,102 ✭✭✭shootermacg


    • Andy copied the Leinster head coach's homework, Lancaster's in this case.
    • Andy is incapable to integrating players from other provinces, because he's a vibes guy.
    • Lanny left, shortly followed by Catt.
    • Andy is now copying Nienaber's homework (it's what he does) which is the 2019 Bok playbook.
    • Irish players are now Boks light.
    • Leinster will get pumped in the business end of the Champions cup
    • IRFU will need to cancel Nienaber's contract and get Lanny back to Leinster, or pay Lanny a ransom to be an attack coach.
    • Lanny tried an on-ball game with Owen Farrell at 10 (not good)
    • Lanny wouldn't work as a national coach, because the Leinster guys need to rep his system constantly at their club to play at an acceptable level.
    • Connacht and Munster play more like Ireland used to play than Leinster do now.
    • Some hybrid of Lanny's system with a more kick focused game might work.
    • Sam is an off-ball 10, Jack is an on-ball 10 they get selected according to the game plan.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 27,291 ✭✭✭✭phog


    What does building from the bottom up actually mean and without fans who attends the matches at national and provincial level. Can the IRFU actually turn their backs to fans



  • Subscribers, Paid Member Posts: 44,906 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    The kool aid jug is well dry at this stage....



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,583 ✭✭✭ersatz


    Ah, I was referring more to getting players coming through the system by supporting clubs and schools with coaching and resources than I was thinking about getting fans through the gate. You can produce fans through marketing and results, but you can't produce players that way.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,567 ✭✭✭niallm77


    Somebody has been on the sauce for a few days it seems.

    Leisnter getting pumped in the Champions Cup final to peak saracens, LaR and toulouse is a damn side preferable to losing to the world powers zebre, edinburgh and castres.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 34 Sportsmad5


    On the offensive side, there has been a change over the last few years from tries coming from the backs to the forwards. In 2025 11 tries came from forwards and 6 from backs, but in 2022 it was higher and it was the backs that were getting the tries, 15 v 9 from the forwards.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,511 ✭✭✭Wegians89


    I’d love if Farrell rang up Lancaster and got Him involved in some capacity. Would probably need him in for the summer to have a decent impact for RWC



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,070 ✭✭✭crusd


    I am presuming it was Lancaster who brought Mack Hansen in and it was also Lancaster made JGP first choice for Leinster before Farrell brought him into the Ireland team ahead of Luke McGrath?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,636 ✭✭✭crossman47


    Thats true but other countries are now beginning to see how to deal with our forward surges (other than Sheehan). It also makes for turgid viewing. I personally hate mauled tries. There should be some disincentive - maybe no conversion allowed?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,612 ✭✭✭twinytwo


    A well done maul is a thing of beauty… why penalise it? It would be another pointless change to the game.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 3,755 ✭✭✭50HX


    Mauled tries are an art itself, commit 2 many defensively & you leave too much attacking space out wide.

    Alot of changes in rugby in recent times to make it more visually appealing to a wider audience.

    Some of these changes aren't always for the better eg unstraight throws to the lineout,not contesting a line out



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 6,477 ✭✭✭P.Walnuts




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,636 ✭✭✭crossman47




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 23,858 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    I don't know if this has already been posted, but it's a pretty accurate, and damning review of Irish 6 nations performance, not so much from the players, but the failure of the coaching ticket

    https://www.skysports.com/rugby-union/news/12317/13331309/a-baffling-change-in-style-how-ireland-blew-the-six-nations-chance-of-a-century-and-a-half

    Ban billionaires



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 14,061 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    Prendergast, despite some bizarre coverage to the contrary in Ireland afterwards, did not play well against England, missing a simple conversion, kicking poorly from hand, and failing to get the attack clicking. Crowley emerged from the bench on 58 minutes, and the pace and tempo of the Test changed instantly - fellow subs Jack Conan and Dan Sheehan also thrived.

    This is just flat out wrong. Both in its criticism of Prendergast and analysis of what Crowley did.

    The larger point about a change in style has merit. Evolution was needed, we needed to adapt to defensive adjustments against us. I don't hold it necessitated a compete abandonment of the system that had us as the best team in the world.



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  • Hosted Moderators Posts: 9,460 ✭✭✭fitz


    Absolute waffle. Tldr: most of the article focuses Prendergast, painting a picture that if only the coaches had not stuck with Prendergast we would have played more like our old selves with Crowley at 10. Completely ignores Crowleys poor form this season (particularly December). It's a shallow reading of what's changed and is nothing but critical of SP. Change the bloody record.



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