Hamas strike on Israel - mod warning in OP updated 19/10/23

East Jerusalem and the West Bank are equally more complex than you imply.

Do please explain.

Every line I posted is a verifiable fact.

The fact that you called it 'gunk' says everything about your perspective on reality and where your sympathies lie.

There were warrants issued for Hamas leaders too, but of course you don't like to admit that, and choose to erase it from the record instead.

What's the point?

You were educated on East Jerusalem by another poster a while back. You just ignore it, wait a while, and then repost the same old stuff.

At least hopefully you're more informed on the Golan now too and can drop it from your 'What about' script going forward.

I was never in Gaza, so I can't say first hand. I was going to go but was advised that although parts of it were ok, if you went to the wrong area you could get into trouble, so i said, **** it.

Whatever way it was, it would have been a lot better off if it had a government that was actively persuing building its economy and infrstructure for 20 years rather than wasting its funding on a terrorism campaign against its neighbour.

No one is backing it up. They are pointing out that s**t things happen in war, especially when you are fighting a genocidal death cult who glorifies the deaths of its own people as maytrdom, and who are willing to sacrifice their own peoples children, and indeed, their very own children, as necessary sacrifices to achieve their aims.

The same people who say Israel are 'murdering' children in Gaza tend to be the same people who legtimise Oct 7th as an 'Act of Resistance' by Palestinain 'Freedom Fighters'.

This is the language of the propagandists. This is how they frame their narrative, and tell their biased stories to gullible fools.

If you willingly choose to use the language of the Pro-Hamas propagandists, then it's understandable why some people will see you as being Pro-Hamas.

Could you point out where anyone has defended Hamas on this or any other thread please? Has NOT happened.

There was more child deaths in Gaza in 12 months than in all the wars globally in the last 4 years. Also plenty of videos of children being deliberately targeted by the IDF posted on this thread too. Nothing morally right about the IDF at all and they are every bit as bad as Hamas as these videos have shown, even laughing afterwards.

As posted previously, some Israelis on 7th October were slaughtered by the IDF. Recently, another post enquired if the Hannibal Directive had been implemented - Yoav Gallant (alleged war criminal at large) admitted to issuing the order.

So, Hamas did not slaughter all 1200 (approx). Israel slaughtered some of them - possibly well over 100.

So that's one line in your post that is not "a verifiable fact".

That's not to detract from the rest of your post - but facts matter.

Certainly, Hamas have controlled Gaza since they took power. Whether it can be called "oppression", I'm not sure.

Certainly, by fully controlling access too/from Gaza, controlling electricity, controlling shipments into Gaza etc. Gaza earned the moniker of "an open-air prison" - the Governor (or oppressor) is Israel.

And that's just Gaza - look at the West Bank and East Jerusalem - they are also heavily controlled by Israel. The West Bank is currently getting the Gaza treatment. I wonder how long it will be before it too looks like Gaza.Oh wait, that won't happen because the Settlers have illegally taken land and now live there. As they hope to do in Gaza.

You're accusing others about not being honest about Hamas and their atrocities, but you in turn cannot be honest about Gaza pre/post Oct 7th.

The whole "I was going to go" is nothing but a mealy mouth spiel and an extremely dishonest statement.

This isn't a football match wherein if I criticise Israel it is simplistically because I, must therefore, be a supporter of Hamas.

Gaza hasn't had an election in 20 odd years; the children, youths and up to middle aged in Gaza represent 65-70% of the population - they had no act in voting for Hamas yet you keep misrepresenting it as something they they decided recently.

When it comes to their historic treatment (which you conveniently ignore) it is a textbook scenario of state terrorism which in turn gives rise to counter terrorism; What/how do you expect the multigenerational state terrorism to affect one subset of the populace?

You talk about Hamas oppressing the Palestinians - You're solution is to keep killing innocent people and expect them to somehow turn to Israel with any sense of trust?

I posted previously that Gaza is now the world leader in child amputees. Children are having limbs removed without anaesthetic. If that was your child; how would you react to Israel?

The level of hatred between the two groups has reached consecutive new lows and yet you'll hide away and, as has become the usual easy trope, utter pathetic nonsense like "The mask has slipped" or "Legitimising Oct 7th".

I'll remind everyone of your previous line:

Israel are not oppressing millions of people.

Have a look at the Israeli nominee for the Nobel peace prize who has continued to receive consecutive Israeli government backing to achieve her/their aims - 2025 "Peace" Price Nominee

And then you have the pathetic audacity to label others as "gullible fools"….

Ok relax, I know you weren't there and you were not going to go. It seems you know nothing about Gaza pre Oct 7th 2024. Fine, I'll help.

Have a read of these few links and then respond to my question please. Take your time. Reputable sources.

- Suffocation and Isolation 17 Years of Israeli Blockade on Gaza

Gaza Is Being Made Unlivable | TIME

Gaza "Unliveable", UN Special Rapporteur for the Situation of Human Rights in the OPT Tells Third Committee - Press Release (Excerpts) - Question of Palestine

If you are 10-year-old living in Gaza | NRC

Please don't reply until you understand the question I asked. No rush.

I was in Israel and was interested in going to Gaza but didn't. Simple as that.

Hamas have always been popular and constantly poll around 50-60% in surveys. Their approval ratings increase after any of their terrorist atrocities. They're poplular right now ffs, which is why the Arab nations want them gone. They know full well there is a good chance they would be elected straight back into power if allowed to remain there.

Hamas are oppressing their population. Why you take exception to that is your business. I don't why you're so eager to plead their case.

My solution is for Hamas to surrender and **** off, but you don't like that either for some reason.

Well, there was one guy who lamented that he would never have the courage of Sinwar in the aftermath of his death. How about him?

Regurgitating Hamas talking-points is defending and supporting Hamas. What part of that don't you understand?

If you're parrotting the official Hamas party line that they have no choice, they were forced to do it, that they're freedom fighters not terrorists, that you'd probably do the same yerself if in the same situation, that's defending Hamas, their actions and their goals. It may be soft support, but it's justification of their cause.

When the IDF put a bullet through a child's head it's safe to say that them being the "legitimate army of Israel" makes no difference to their victim.

I was in Israel and was interested in going to Gaza but didn't. Simple as that.

Convenient. I have actually been to Israel and I've witnessed how they treat others at checkpoints. I know you haven't seen that side of it, if any at all.

As for your purported 'interest' in going to Gaza, It's entirely clear that bits made up. Even prior to 2023, getting in to Gaza as a tourist was practically impossible and would lead to unknown delays in getting in/out. Israeli checkpoints there did not encourage 'tourists' so even travelling to their could be a futile and potentially dangerous choice.

Hamas have always been popular and constantly poll around 50-60% in surveys. Their approval ratings increase after any of their terrorist atrocities. They're poplular right now ffs, which is why the Arab nations want them gone. They know full well there is a good chance they would be elected straight back into power if allowed to remain there.

And the reason for their rise and continued support is..? (I'll give you a clue t's that oppressive regime that have lorded over them since it's inception that you continuously give a pass to)

They aren't the first and won't be the last to act in this manner.

We champion the Civil Rights of people yet here you are satisfied to ensure one part of the populace is kept in perpetual oppressive poverty without reproach.

When Civil Rights have historically been denied to one subset of a populace it, for the large part, ends in violent backlash against the state. Here's and English historian on Irish violence against in establishing Irish freedom:

The Irish [thanks to the example set by Collins and followed by SOE] can thus claim that their resistance provide the originating impulse for resistance to tyrannies worse than any they had to endure themselves. And the Irish resistance as Collins led it, showed the rest of the world a way to fight wars the only sane way they can be fought in the age of the Nuclear bomb.

Another English historian wrote about the SOE being lauded as heroes by utilising the same tactics and arguments of "terrorist" organisations:

We must recognise that our response to the scourge of terrorism compromised by what we did through SOE. The justification ... That we had no other means of striking back at the enemy ... is exactly the argument used by the Red Brigades, the Baader-Meinhoff gang, the PFLP, the IRA and every other half-articulate terrorist organisation on Earth. Futile to argue that we were a democracy and Hitler a tyrant. Means besmirch ends. SOE besmirched Britain.

Countries like Israel create the situation because they need groups like Hamas to continue their oppressive regimes.

Hamas are oppressing their population.

They are. But Israel have created that scenario intentionally. It's textbook stuff. They even openly admit and planned to put the Palestinian people under conditions; literal "Hell". But you excuse and support that given your logic.

Are Israel not also, using your logic, oppressing their people. Israelis who speak out are quickly denounced, labelled and face unjust wrath. Have a listen to a teacher called Meir Baruchin who dared to show compassion for innocent Palestinians. Mossad acted in the same manner to quickly quash any potential upstarts higlighting the plight of a people unde their own government.

Everything Israel accused Hamas of doing on Oct 7th (that largely turned out to be untrue), has now been found to have been actually utilised in the brutalisation of prisoners taken by Israel.

Why you take exception to that is your business.

I don't; you've just adopted a very simplistic, blinkered and ultimately contrived view of what has happened there. Why you do so "is your business" but don't think it'll wash when you admit it.

I don't why you're so eager to plead their case.

My solution is for Hamas to surrender and **** off, but you don't like that either for some reason.

Your 'solution' isn't a solution at all. It's made up clap trap that's completely in line with you 'logic' and take on the situation.

What I don't "like" is again something you've made up. The removal of Hamas from the picture would be a great day for all concerned but you have led yourself to believe they came to be by pure chance and not due to the oppressive regime ruling over the Palestinians.

Israel uses similar language in that video I posted for you; I can now assume you ignored it or else have seen you're echoing their depraved sentiments and are keen to just move on from it.

That's correct, but the source of any bullet would make very little differnce to any one who's dead.

If you're not able to make a differentiation between an armed terrorist and the Guards, that's your business.

Yet again you're just showing your complete lack of any semblance of understanding for the situation in Gaza or the moral obligations of (what should be) a civilised states armed force.

Gaza has some of the most condensed populace. If the IDF are bombing areas at will (like the were so not really an 'if') then they cannot claim that Hamas were using human shields. As the IDF have done, if they instruct the Palestinians to move to a 'safe ' area and then proceed to bomb said area; that still is not Hamas using human shields.

When/if Hamas do use people as human shields thee IDF cannot simply shrug their shoulders and let lose. It's basic stuff, why you support this 'is your business' but don't think it's in anyway realistic, sensible or has any basis in fact.