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Journalism and Cycling 2: the difficult second album

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,906 ✭✭✭MojoMaker


    I was struggling for the right word to use instead of accident but I'm not having any real joy. The opposite of accident would be something like intentional practice, but I reckon 'incident' or 'collision' isn't the right word either. Negligent incident?

    The English-speaking world seems to have settled on RTA and is used universally?



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 54,911 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    Collision.



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 44,792 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    ...or incident

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  • Site Banned Posts: 33,931 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    RTA hasn't been used by police, emergency services, transport policy experts for decades.
    RTC - road traffic collision is the standard, or just crash.

    image.png

    https://www.roadpeace.org/working-for-change/crash-not-accident/



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,906 ✭✭✭MojoMaker


    RTC it is then. Maybe it's just legacy medical organisations that refer to RTA.

    Collision doesn't sound much different though to be honest. In most minds a collision would be accidental, no? To get the point home would it need to be deliberate collision?



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  • Site Banned Posts: 33,931 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    No. Most of the time, you just don't have full details of exactly what happened until years later. You don't know that it was accidental or deliberate until all investigations have completed.

    So just call it a crash or collision.



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 44,792 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    I used to marshal at motorsport events in Mondello & Phoenix Park around 25 years ago.

    You'd occasionally hear a newbie radio in about an accident on XYZ corner. They'd learn soon enough not to call them that. They were never accidents - there was always a reason for an incident and generally it was human error

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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,906 ✭✭✭MojoMaker


    🧐 there's always a reason for an accident too though.

    Not defending it, just don't see that a 'collision' apportions any blame over an 'accident'?

    Indeed - you can't, can you? At least not at the time.

    Of course, I may just be conditioned 🙅‍♂️



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,217 ✭✭✭✭zell12


    talk to Mayo CoCo https://www.westernpeople.ie/news/seven-junctions-on-lethal-stretch-of-n17-are-set-to-be-closed_arid-50629.html

    senior executive engineer Conrad Harley told councillors ..had been 100 accidents on that particular stretch of road since 2019, including a number of fatal collisions. .. while the N17 outside of Claremorris has one of the highest accident rates in the country .. "I am not saying junctions are the cause of every accident but they do add unnecessary confusion to motorists.” 

    Cllr Damien Ryan said .. “To close a huge number of access points in your area puts great pressure on public representatives. We are being asked to make these decisions within a vacuum as such with GDPR denying statistics and insights into the cause of accidents, but we are here trying to do the right thing."



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,914 ✭✭✭Paddigol


    For me it's the double standards - if there's an incident where a car/ driver causes damage, it's immediately spoken of in hushed tones as an accident, with the unsaid but underlying element of compassion for the driver in a "there but for the grace of god" kind of sense. Which in many ways is fine… many of us will be involved or even at fault for some kind of tip/ collission in a car, most of us aren't maniacs and its not a particularly nice experience.

    BUT…

    It's accompanied by a steadfast refusal by almost all 'stakeholders' to do anything about the underlying causes - driver behaviour and vehicle design.

    AND…

    An unending torrent of bile spews forth (or at the very least, the condescending tut tut of disapproval) whenever there is a report of walker/ cyclist/ eScooter user being involved in an "accident", where the conversation immediately turns to pondering whether they were wearing a helmet, hi viz. Followed by anecdotal talk of how anyway they're impossible to see, always dressed in black, appear out of nowhere, break red lights, use the footpath and nearly knocked down everyone's granny.

    So while in many ways I've no problem with using the term 'accident', I do have an issue insofar as it perpetuates the cognitive dissonance that seems to be affecting half of society when it comes to our relationship with The Car.



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  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 54,911 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    'it was an accident' is a very common way of explicitly stating 'no one was to blame' but many, or most such incidents on the road do have someone to blame.

    The word collision has no 'baggage' in terms of implying blame, or lack of.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,297 ✭✭✭Mefistofelino


    Construction safety is a huge thing for us at work - you don't get considered for the largest contracts if you don't have an exemplary safety record. Part of the safety culture is the sharing of reports on any injuries and near-misses, including an explanation of the causes, contributing factors and the actions that need to be shared across all our sites to avoid a repetition. As everything has a root cause and it's not acceptable to just shrug and say" I dunno, it's a balls, innit?" these are always referred to as "incidents" rather than "accidents". Even where site vehicles may be involved, it is still an incident.

    The term "accident" just means that either people are being careless with terminology (and that is a significant issue in itself) or they just haven't looked for the cause hard enough.



  • Site Banned Posts: 33,931 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    That's just it though. Collision doesn't apportion blame. It is factual, neutral. If you want to apportion blame, and you have enough information to do so, you can do that.

    But generally, when we're talking about an incident that has just happened, we don't have enough information to do that. So just call it a crash or collision. That is entirely accurate.

    I'm not sure that the country that relies on an annual blessing of the roads to reduce their horrendous road death rates would be considered a thought leader in this domain.



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 44,792 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    Donal Fallon: The bike ride that links a chain of events from Buenos Aires to the roof of the GPO in 1916

    Before Dervla Murphy or Manchán Magan, there was William Bulfin and his ‘Rambles in Éirinn’

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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 21,322 ✭✭✭✭Stark


    Nice article in the Times for once https://www.irishtimes.com/life-style/people/2025/03/17/sarah-moss-i-cycle-to-central-dublin-several-times-a-week-im-a-hypocrite-not-allowing-my-teenager-to-do-the-same/



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 54,911 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder




  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 54,911 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/2025/03/25/six-months-ago-i-went-car-free-heres-how-its-going/

    Saving 5k a year on fuel, maintenance and insurance? I'd like to see her calculations.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,788 ✭✭✭JMcL


    It seems high alright. She doesn't say whether she's living in Waterford city or where she's commuting to (I'm guessing if she can do it on bike she's not going to Dungarvan every day), but sort of comparing like with like as I'm in Waterford as well, a quick back of the beermat calculation shows me that if I drove to/from work fuel would be €2.80ish per day, about €630pa based on the average days worked, add about €500 for maintenance,€600 insurance, we'll ignore tolls as she'd only incur those if going round Waterford. Depreciation? Maybe €1-1.5k on our cars - if you drive a newish BMW this will go up but depreciation on new cars is just funny money anyway.

    Add all that up and you're still a long way shy of €5k though nonetheless gives a compelling reason to ditch the car if you can. I'd dearly love to ditch at least one and am not far off the point where kids don't need that much ferrying around but I'm unfortunately not really recognising this "decent bus and intercity rail service" she speaks of.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 54,911 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    i don't like that she states a nice (suspiciously) round figure about how much she's saving and then tosses in a comment that she does indeed hire cars when needed, but makes no effort to state how often that is, or what the annual spend on car hire is.

    she might be including depreciation under the maintenance heading, but if so, that's misleading. maybe she was going on the AA calculations on cost of ownership, which i've deep reservations about.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,217 ✭✭✭✭zell12


    Sadbh O'Neill, lives in Waterford (Lecturer part-time & researcher TUD), sold her car six months ago.. Just said same on Newstalk at 08:52. So a Waterford-Dublin commute



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,788 ✭✭✭JMcL


    So has neglected to factor in a €25-30 return on the train for the days she's onsite. It's still the right thing to do, but the €5k figure is a bit disingenuous



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,484 ✭✭✭Large bottle small glass


    "and other costs"

    5k would be cheap for annual cost of car ownership. The car could easily be costing her €6k plus.

    Tax and insurance: €1k

    Fuel for 20k: €2040 @6L/100km at €1.7/L

    Preventative maintenance: €500

    Tyres €200 ( half wear at €100/tyre for 4 tyres)

    Depreciation: €3k

    Really hard to get depreciation under 3K per year if you have any kind of decent car and you don't want huge fuel/maintenance/motor tax costs.

    While second hand values are really good the cost to change is still mental



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,217 ✭✭✭✭zell12


    Sadbh mentioned parking on NT, and mentions 'estimate per year'.

    image.png

    AA in 2019 say running a 'family car' costs ~€10k pa https://www.theaa.ie/motoring-advice/cost-of-motoring/ . It is also a figure the media quotes https://www.independent.ie/business/personal-finance/how-ditching-the-car-could-save-you-10000-a-year/42303531.html . I'd say €5k pa is reasonable



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 54,911 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    those are the AA costs i mentioned above which are bananas.

    'f) Garage/Parking/ Misc. expenses' of €4.1k per year, regardless of the value of the car?

    they include 'repairs and replacements' under the running costs per km, so the above figure does not include maintenance. so are they including the cost of building your own garage as part of car ownership?

    don't forget the AA is a lobbying group for motorists. it's in their interests to promote the 'put upon motorist' trope.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,484 ✭✭✭Large bottle small glass


    Don't accuse someone of being misleading while you partially quote them….

    AA are numbers are nuts (for your average driver/car) but 50% of their number isn't for total cost of ownership.

    I know a man who at a minimum has lost €10K per year on depreciation since I know him; and I fist met him around 1998. His total cost of motoring in that timeframe is circa €500k. He's extreme but there is loads of people losing their holes on running cars

    The best I've ever done on deprecation is €1.5k/year but that was a mixture of

    *dealer getting taxed by me for clocking car

    *car being incredibly reliable over 300k of driving

    *very cheap 2nd cars pre Brexit.

    At a minimum current car is costing me €2.5/year depreciation. That's buying a car at 4 years old when 50% or so of "value" is gone.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 54,911 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    FWIW i had edited the post you quoted for clarity, after you'd selected it to quote. i'd copped maintenance was not included under the garage costs.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 54,911 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    and if she had included depreciation in that €5k figure, fair enough - but like you mention, it's quite likely to be the largest part of the figure. just a bit odd that she'd not specify what the largest component of that saving is.

    it's possible the article was edited (not by her) for brevity, so there's always the possibility that some details got scrubbed.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,217 ✭✭✭✭zell12


    Inspired by Sadbh O'Neill, coming up on Newstalk after 12 "could you go carless" buses and bicycles



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 26,519 Mod ✭✭✭✭CramCycle


    At the minute I am 30 minute cycle from work, but driving I would spend at least €50 a week on fuel. So that is €2500 on fuel alone. Insurance €500, motor tax on my car is €800, NCT €50, maintenance €300 (tyres, oil, lights, auxillary). That is €4150 and all conservative. This also does not include all the costs if I was not using my bike.

    I don't include depreciation as the car was a once off cost on day one, if I get anything back it is a bonus but it is also not calculable until I sell it.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,710 ✭✭✭Tenzor07




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