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Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 576 ✭✭✭exiledawaynothere


    I think the coaching team have got a lot wrong this season. Objectively looking at this season, we had a few outstanding individual performances cover up poor tactics and poor selection decisions. JGP, Lowe, and Doris have been outstanding. This will go down as a missed opportunity.

    I am not revisiting the contentious player selections, but our media have a lot to answer for in bigging up players.

    I don’t think it has been mentioned much but I thought Keenan had a good game (I was worried he was off the boil a bit) and had a fantastic 50-22.

    Post edited by exiledawaynothere on


  • Posts: 146 ✭✭ [Deleted User]


    I think the coaches have been in an awkward position with O'Mahony. He's been playing very well even if he's not quite as athletic as he was a few years ago.

    Izuchukwu is injured, has been covering the second row at Ulster recently, and frankly hasn't shown the form for international selection. The French back row would have eaten him up.

    Playing Beirne at six reduces his impact and the other options drift in and out of games. Baird has improved but he still doesn't do enough. Ahern makes too far many errors in games even at provincial level. Prendergast has dropped off a bit for us at Connacht this season and mustn't be showing quite enough in training.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 576 ✭✭✭exiledawaynothere


    it was a terrible selection by the management. They make their mind up about players and don’t look at what is happening on the field.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 2,016 ✭✭✭Packrat


    Cian Healy or Peter O'Mahony didn't lose us the tournament. In fact O'Mahony played well over the minutes he's had and yesterday showed that we don't have another younger 6 of his ability, workrate or smarts. That's pretty damming - all the back rowers and a 35 year old PoM is still better and worth his starting place?

    The reason we persist with players for longer than other nations is the small pool of professionals we have to choose from. That's fairly obvious.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 396 ✭✭CalmaftertheGav


    It's this sort of mindset and attitude that is a plague on Irish rugby and a big reason why we find ourselves in positions like yesterday and continuously bowing out early at RWC's.

    POM is the best 6. However, this isn't because he's been very good, it's because he's the least likely to make mistakes none of his alternatives are given much of a chance to take the jersey off him. We give players like Baird & Izuchukwu 1 or 2 caps at a time and then as soon as a big game comes around or these players make 1 or 2 mistakes they are immediately ousted for the "safe pair of hands". Unfortunately, this selection policy is just ingrained in Irish rugby and until we grow a pair of balls and actually move on players like this at the right time we are going to continue to have disappointing days like yesterday. You give France, NZL, SA our player pool and POM isn't even in the squad, yet in Ireland he's starting and getting a big sendoff…and that right there is the big issue. Playing against nations like NZL, SA, FRA you need players that fit your system, players that make the opposition think twice while in defense. Players like POM are their dream, you know exactly what he'll throw at them and will never be more than a 7-8 out of 10 meaning they just need to do their job and they neutralize POM. Players like Baird, Izuchukwu, Ahern on the other hand will ask questions of them, it will make them think twice while in defense, which not only gives us another option, but it makes things easier for the other forwards. Having players like POM is fine when you are playing inferior nations but against the very best you need QUALITY…not "workhorses".

    The reason we persist with these players for so long is because we are still a mentally weak nation when it comes to rugby and too scared to make a big decision at the right time…players like POM, Murray, Healy, Herring don't fit the way we want to play yet we persist with them because we are worried about "disrespecting them" or backing younger players because they are prone to make more mistakes.

    What sums it all up for me is the uproar about the camera not showing POM going off…we are getting humped in our own back yard and our GS/Championship aspirations are in tatters. Yet POM not getting enough airtime going off…THAT'S the issue for some fans...

    In the end the selections of POM and Healy did cost us this tournament, not because of their performances, but because it showed up our mental fragility that we are too conservative to move on from older players who don't fit our system. The fact we still have people on mass defending the selection is concerning, just shows how ingrained this way of thinking is in Irish rugby culture and doesn't fill me with any confidence that we can solve this issue anytime soon.

    It's a blessing they are all retiring, probably the only way the management will ever move on from them.

    And again case in point the mentality of Irish rugby. Basically, just persist with POM because he's the least likely to f**k up, is exactly how we end up in situations like yesterday. We like to claim we've learned our lessons, and we have what it takes to win at the highest level, yet days like yesterday show that the mentality of "little old Ireland" is still ingrained in us and until is addressed sadly days like yesterday in big matches will be a common occurrence.

    And with all due respect, if Izuchukwu hasn't shown form for international selection, then neither has POM…but that's the other big issue, we aren't even consistent in our conservative selection. Its 1 rule for players like POM and another for the younger players.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 2,016 ✭✭✭Packrat


    Thats an opinion. Mine differs.

    You would obviously have supported starting JMc yesterday and probably think JR should be sent out to grass? - I'm only following your own logic here...

    How did that work out?

    Baird has bren given umpteen chances and always manages to be invisible when not off the bench. Izuchukwu is injured and has been fairly meh when not.

    Who would you have started at 6 yesterday?

    Again - it wasn't PoM who lost us the championship yesterday. Why with trying to blame him or Healy and Murray who barely played?

    Would you have liked to have had MORE performances like those of McCarthy, SP, or Osborne yesterday?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,462 ✭✭✭almostover


    I take your point that we revert back to the trusted few quite quickly if a newcomer makes some mistakes.

    But SA and NZ do the same. And both select workhorse type players. NZ won the WC with a 36 year old workhorse named Brad Thorn in the 2nd row. And SA won it with a 36 year old Duane Vermuelen starting at no.8.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 396 ✭✭CalmaftertheGav


    It's not, results like yesterday show that you are wrong.

    Well there are 2 things to touch on. The first being, unlike the 6 jersey, there is actually another quality option in his prime in the SR available in James Ryan. If its 36-year-old past it James Ryan then yes, I would support backing McCarthy.

    He hasn't been given umpteen chances, he's had 2 starts in 2 years. Well Izuchukwu has been invisible because he hasnt played…he's got 50 minutes of test rugby to his name…but it appears you've already made your mind up about him based on those 50 minutes so I see little point in giving him more game time.

    I mean, any of those 3 or even moving Beirne to 6 would have been preferable.

    Selecting the likes of POM, Healy, Murray has cost us the championship. These selections showed that we are still a mentally weak rugby nation unwilling to make the difficult, but right decision, to move on older players when they are past it and no longer fit our system.

    You can be critical of those players all you like but I can think of numerous occasions they tried to make something happens but were let down by their teammates….what did POM do? The only thing I remember from him was getting cleared out by Flament before the 2nd French try. Give me Osborne, McCarthy, Prendergast over anonymous pete anyday.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,712 ✭✭✭Former Former Former


    I am not revisiting the contentious player selections, but our media have a lot to answer for in bigging up players.

    One of the weirdest things driving the anti-Ireland sentiments on this board is the unshakeable conviction that the "media" influences selections. Absolutely bizarre.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 396 ✭✭CalmaftertheGav


    It needs to stop, especially when the "trusted" player really isnt that good anymore. If we are dropping McCarthy for Ryan then that makes some sense as Ryan is still a quality player…POM isnt.

    The game has really moved on from 2011, I don't think at the highest level you can afford to carry players anymore.

    I'm totally fine with having older players if those said players are still doing a good job at the highest level. Vermeulen in 2019 was arguably the best N8 in the World so while older he still brought a ton to the table. Same with the likes of Carter in 2015.

    For Ireland I'm fine with Aki for instance or even the likes of Lowe, JGP, Beirne, Conan as they are all still top-quality operators. The likes of Healy, Herring, Henderson, Murray, POM etc dont offer enough to be part of an aspiring top team and needed to be moved on.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 2,016 ✭✭✭Packrat


    ^^^This is little more than fact resistant trolling now.

    Healy and Murray haven't played 30 mins between them. How have they lost us the championship?

    Which of McCarthy SP or Osborne plays at 6? as you've said you prefer them over O'Mahony

    Moving the best lock we have to 6? Because that definitely worked when they tried to force a space for McCarthy last year.. Jesus... Even the biased management gave up on that..

    Have you ever actually watched a rugby match?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 42,675 ✭✭✭✭eagle eye


    I have to say I'd like to see POM put off his retirement for a year. He's still an important member of the 23, there's nobody coming through yet to replace him.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 396 ✭✭CalmaftertheGav


    I've named 4 options that should be ahead of him. Nobody else has been given a proper opportunity to replace him, that's the issue.

    As per usual, we wont find a players successor until that player has retired…typical.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 396 ✭✭CalmaftertheGav


    I've already told you numerous times why they've cost us the championship, just scroll back and read.

    And you accuse me of trolling…I think you know very well what I meant when talking about Osborne, SP, McCarthy.

    If you truly believe the other 6's aren't up to it then we should play Beirne at 6…the reality is 4. McCarthy 5. Ryan 6. Beirne is preferable than playing POM at 6, going back to POM was a big mistake and should have rung alarm bells for everyone that we were making the same mistakes we have in the past with flogging a dead horse.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 42,675 ✭✭✭✭eagle eye


    Izuchukwu and Cian Prendergast got a shot against Fiji and neither did enough to be even considered an option for the bench.

    And I'm a Connacht fan.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 2,016 ✭✭✭Packrat


    Are you trying to give them heart attacks!! Lol...

    No, Pete is better off out of it now, whilst he's still playing well.

    The fallout and blame game for what will happen next year is going to be epic when a few of the current 'freak of nature' or 'high ceiling' swans turn out to be ducks.

    Better off away from that.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 396 ✭✭CalmaftertheGav


    So they get 1 shot and that's it? 50 minutes isn't anywhere near enough game time to establish weather a player is up to it or not. Whatever about Prendergast but with Izuchukwu with his build and style of play we should be backing him. By backing him it means being patient and giving him consistent minutes in the jersey, not 50 minutes…then hooking him only to never see him again.

    It's this sort of mindset that leads to a team having a past it 36-year-old playing at 6.

    The way Ireland play they need a big, strong, athletic 6…POM isnt that.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 413 ✭✭roverjoyce


    What a waste of a Six Nations this year was,

    giving game time to 3 players who you know are retiring,

    And letting them run out first was an embarrassment when has this ever happened before



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 2,016 ✭✭✭Packrat


    You're contradicting yourself.

    POM is too old you say, So replace him with a young player - ok, then in the same breath you suggest moving the functioning lock out of position to 6. Beirne is 33. Two years younger than PoM, and is a less mobile player. Besides this was ALREADY tried and didn't work.

    Its almost like people want Beirne at 6 so he can fail and be dumped whilst Big Lazy Joe takes his place at lock... madness.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 27,222 ✭✭✭✭phog


    I'll be kind here, this is absolute waffle and nothing but waffle.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 396 ✭✭CalmaftertheGav


    Name me a time a NZL,SA,FRA did that? This was Grand Slam decider…it's about winning, not giving someone a send off.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 396 ✭✭CalmaftertheGav


    Again, just read my comments and you'll see I'm not contradicting myself. I said its okay to have an older player if that player is still playing great rugby at the highest level. Beirne for instance is one of the best players in the world and a certain Lions starter, POM isn't even close to touring…that's the difference in standard. It did work, did you not see the game in SA? That was far more effective a display then anything we've seen with POM at 6 this 6N.

    Beirne at 6 is only one of the options I mentioned.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 396 ✭✭CalmaftertheGav


    You can say it waffle all you like but the proof is in the pudding.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 27,222 ✭✭✭✭phog


    You're harping on about POM and it sounds like you don't understand rugby because other than using cliches you give no real evidence of why he should not be starting.

    Oddly enough, our two worst performers from the starting 15 yesterday were our youngest back and our youngest forward.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 911 ✭✭✭MattressRick


    Apparently that's what Ireland do every 4 years and it's still the same outcome in the World Cup. They gave lots of players game time to get exposure, yet they were riddled with nerves and full of mistakes in the first 20 mins against New Zealand.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 396 ✭✭CalmaftertheGav


    I understand plenty about rugby actually. I gave plenty if you read my post, for our style to be most affective we need a big, strong , athletic 6…POM doesn't tick any of those categories compared to his pears.

    Those "worst performers" at least had their moments where they tried to make something happen…i'd rather that than anonymous Pete.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 27,222 ✭✭✭✭phog


    You've confirmed my initial thoughts when I saw your username, thanks, I'm out.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 42,675 ✭✭✭✭eagle eye


    Where are you going to play Izuchukwu? He plays second row for Ulster. He looked lost at 6 against Fiji.

    So Prendergast is next up. He's not having a great season to this point.

    O'Mahoney is still strong, he's experienced and he's smart. He just doesn't have anything close to 80 minutes in him but he's a great bench option. He and Conan are a great fit together as a starter and replacement.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 27,222 ✭✭✭✭phog


    No, POM starts or he's not in the 23, definitely not an international match of importance.

    It's a manufactured debate here anyway, similar to the Crowley pile on after the defeat to NZ.

    Our pack were out muscled yesterday and suddenly POM is the issue



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 396 ✭✭CalmaftertheGav


    He's playing SR due to injuries, he's a 6. Then you play him again, a player of his athletic ability is hard to find. You aren't going to find anywhere near enough about a player based on just 50 minutes of rugby, he's been one of the best forwards in Irish rugby this season so its worth giving him a proper crack. This chopping and changing and never giving a young player consistent time to grow into a position is exactly why we end up having a past it 36-year-old at 6.

    Well he's 36 and played over 100 games…I'd expect him to be smart and experience. Is he any stronger than the other players I mentioned? He certainly doesn't have their size or athletic ability anyway so I would hope he is strong to make up for it.

    Even Conan at 6 would make more sense.



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