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No longer employable?

2

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,165 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    Online courses is missing the point. You want certification and courses and activities where you meet, network with people.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 435 ✭✭CuriousCucumber


    I'd say that if you're getting interviews, then your cv is not the problem. Rather your interview performance.

    I work in a large multi national company in the It sector, and we absolutely despise having to conduct interviews. Massive drain of resources. We would never waste the effort interviewing someone who isn't in with a chance of getting the role.

    But we also won't hire someone who's not right for the role.

    I'd search for some interview coaching.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,141 ✭✭✭Gloomtastic!


    Ok, if by any chance you’re on the northside, pm me.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,720 ✭✭✭BrianD3


    Might as well ask this here, if someone is not employed but not in receipt of any social welfare payment (as they don't pass the means test due to savings), can they avail of free training and upskilling courses. There is a mountain of information on training courses online but the answer to this question is not clear to me. I know that courses on Ecollege were free to everyone during Covid, not sure if that is still the case. Also what's the situation with practical, hands on training such as HGV or bus driving, I know of someone who claims to have gotten their bus lessons for free and I doubt that they were on JSA but I could be wrong.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,346 ✭✭✭witchgirl26


    OP could it be something as obvious as being overqualified for the role? I was recruiting last year for a role that was fairly junior. The amount of applications I received where people had between 10 & 15 years of experience (just from looking at the employment history on CV) was crazy. We continued to advertise these roles and I think had an initial interview for 2 of those individuals but it was just clear that they would most likely get bored in the role & leave. So there was no point in hiring them.

    I would agree with leaving online free courses to the side and maybe look at a paid development course in the area you work in. I know a few people who've done that to show that even though they weren't employed, they were still increasing their skill levels.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,165 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,165 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    Came across this on panel. Maybe about a third the applicants were downsizing. The wanted to move out of high stress role, and/or high time commitments, or switch career and start over.

    We've had a few posts in these forums about people wanted to move back on the career ladder. From the comments it seems organisation can't mentally process this. Tend to write off such candidates rather than embrace it.

    An experienced person in lesser role can be invaluable. I think its a bit flawed to worry about them staying in a role long term when there is no job security or loyalty anymore.

    That said I don't think that's what the OP is doing. I think if you a long time in a high value role that perhaps isn't valued the same way in other organisation it been be very hard to move laterally or even downward. Then throw some agisim and other such things and you can find yourself with no pigeon hole.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,346 ✭✭✭witchgirl26


    Just to be clear, in our case it wasn't downsizing that was the problem. The role had been advertised as similar to an apprentice with salary reflecting no qualifications in the area & part of the terms were to complete the exams for the sector. All of the overqualified either had more than those exams or equivalents. I think they saw some of the key words & pushed through a CV. I'd have no problem hiring someone older who was looking to change careers or similar but these individuals were in the sector for that length of time and when we did interview the 2 of them, both mentioned that they were looking for a more senior position.

    And part of the long term thing is that with the job we do, continuously rotating staff does cause issues as you need time to build up relationships. I'm still considered new enough & I've been in the company over 7 years.

    All I mean is that I think the OP might need to look at how he is presenting his CV if he is going for a variety of roles as it's not a case of one CV fits all. It needs to be tailored for each application.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,165 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    If a recruitment is getting a disparity between applicants and advert that's a different issue. Because that shouldn't happen.

    Calling someone who's there 7 years "new" is irrational and impractical. If they do the same with apprentice and senior role titles and discordant salaries.

    It's likely all these things are not unrelated. Perhaps for unintuitive but valid reasons.

    I was assuming the OP isn't applying to the wrong role, wrong salary, constantly. I could be wrong.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,346 ✭✭✭witchgirl26


    It could be because they didn't read below the job title to the actual description. In my area, it's common to have a flat enough structure with one head of department & then others underneath. Different work assigned to each based on experience and skill level but often the same job title given to everyone in the team. And anyone who worked in the industry would be aware of this.

    It was a comment as to how long most people are here. And yes as I've said, job title would be the same but responsibilities and salary would be different based on experience and professional qualification.

    I would have thought prior to this that people wouldn't have been applying for the role without reading the full description but recent experience has taught me this isn't always the case.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,530 ✭✭✭✭Mrs OBumble


    People in this scenario should still be signing on for PRSI credits, even though they don't qualify for a benefit.

    I don't know the current training eligibility rules for them - but it's worth asking.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,165 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    So you use the same job title but with different job descriptions.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,346 ✭✭✭witchgirl26


    Not to further derail the topic at hand but it's not that simple. Think of it like the title being "Financial Accountant". Now there are different responsibilities that a financial accountant might have and the level of those might depend on their experience. My level would be more on the reviewing the work done by other financial accountants but that's only because it's developed over time. A more junior financial accountant (one that's just qualified for example) would not have the experience to do that so they start with some of the preparation & work up. I've worked in a place with a flat structure before where everyone was given different titles which were variations of the same - continuing the example there was "Financial Accountant", "Senior Financial Accountant", "Principle Financial Accountant", "Senior Principle Financial Accountant". Realistically those titles meant nothing as we all did the same work just the people with more experience worked on the more complex areas.

    Anyway I digress as I don't want to drag this off topic anymore so I'm not going to argue the naming convention of roles any further. My point is that if the OP is applying for roles where they are or could look overqualified to have something in their application that notes why they want to take what looks like a step down.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,165 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    That you needed to use to use a known lexicon of terms such as apprentice, junior and senior and "principal" explains itself.

    Your original point was there's no point in hiring people over qualified for the role as they will get bored, and assume you get so many because they all read the job specification wrong.

    I'm just saying that seems unlikely so many to get it that wrong. Until you explained that saga about titles having no meaning. That would explain a lot.

    Theres is some merit in suggesting people getting bored, and hiring over qualified people can result in retention issues. But 7yrs to be new/junior. Crikey, that's longer than most medical degrees.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,863 ✭✭✭ford fiesta


    i've bene reading your thread and certainly the job market and candidate selection has changed for the worst since Covid.

    Candidate competition has increased certainly in the IT sector beyond what we would have thought even 3-5 years ago. Assuming you are Irish born and bred ?? - what I have noticed is that non Irish candidates are being hired over Irish professionals and I am not being racist when I say that, it's just a fact and an elephant in the room in the job market. Non-Irish candidates are either based in Ireland or overseas.

    For overseas candidates with no intentions of moving to Ireland they are being interviewed over Teams - once they secure the role, the company are happy for that employee / contractor to fly over from for example London or Manchester for office day just 1 day per month.

    Employers don't care if they can attend the office for the required 1 or 2 days per week. But certainly it's a tough job market out there.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,346 ✭✭✭witchgirl26


    That lexicon was from my old workplace. And that caused more confusion that a straightforward singular title for everyone in the team. And apologies, I make a spelling error.

    My original point is that often times people don't fully read the full job description and only go on the headline or key words in it. We didn't get "so many" as you put it but we did get a few. And I've seen that happen in other places. I've been approached for roles by recruiters that have a key word linked to what I do but I would be in no way qualified to perform. I was trying to show the OP that someone with a large number of years who may be looking at taking a step down the ladder could potentially be perceived negatively by those recruiting as they may see them as overqualified. Tell me exactly what is wrong with that advice. I further expanded that they should look at trying to change their CV to suit the individual roles and also that if they were going to take a step down the career ladder, they should make reference to this in their applications.

    And nowhere did I say I was junior. I said in the context of my workplace, I'm one of the newer joiners as we have a very high retention rate. Average length of service is sitting north of 15 years currently.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,165 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    There's a lot going on in that.

    From the IT forums there's a general trend of things of recruitment getting tighter. Especially for older more experienced staff. You can see that in the RTO mandates.

    People these days have a lot of certifications and qualifications. Not unusual to see with a couple of degrees and a masters. They've probably done quite a few courses on presentation and interview skills as well.

    Post edited by Flinty997 on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,989 ✭✭✭tinytobe


    That's sadly the wrong thinking. I wouldn't "get bored" in a role and leave, I would love it, even if it's boring as boring is perceived more predictable by myself. And also in this job market, "just leaving" is also no longer possible.

    You seem to have discribed it correctly. I also speak one foreign language fluently to business level. However Irish vs. Non-Irish seems not to play any role in my field. Foreign languages are usually a plus for the job.

    It's probably really more the market, the general weakness in real demand.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,346 ✭✭✭witchgirl26


    I'm not saying you would get bored but if you are applying for roles that you may think you're CV would indicate you're overqualified for, you might need to change up some bits and include that you're looking "to go back to basics" or that you are looking to get more involved in the doing rather than the managing etc. One of my colleagues went from leading a function to working a level down in our place. He explained it both in the application and at interview that he'd ended up managing people more than doing the job he liked doing which was the reason for the perceived back step. He got the job & has been a great asset for a few years now.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,720 ✭✭✭BrianD3


    It's good that things worked out for that person, however IMO he was fortunate. Looking to go back to basics or to "do the job you love rather than managing others" will often raise red flags, it shouldn't but it does. The attitude will be that the person is some sort of weirdo or headcase who doesn't get on with people, couldn't hack "challenges", is unambitious etc.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,165 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    While true, it's a pity that's the attitude. Very short sighted.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,989 ✭✭✭tinytobe


    The simple thing is that I don't want the job because of boredom reasons, but it's just to make money, to have an income and pay the bills. Work and job is to me nothing more than the difference between paying bills, saving, etc… or not.

    Whether I would be bored or not bored, isn't even part of the equasion to me, ever.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,346 ✭✭✭witchgirl26


    That might be so but I'm talking about the perception of the people who are looking through the applications. They could look at someone who has x number of years experience & think they will get bored in the role &, not wanting to have to go through recruitment again in a years time, would probably skip over it.

    Also I wouldn't say that to any potential employers either. Saying that the job is just a way to make money etc. isn't what they want to hear. They want to hear that you're enthused by the sound of the company, the culture, it looks like an interesting role blah blah even if you're thinking that it's a means to an end.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,634 ✭✭✭littlevillage


    Haven't read the whole thread soo excuse me if this has been suggested previously.

    But OP it sounds like you might need to broaden your job hunting horizons. You appear to have a certain type of job in mind and for whatever reasons you are not getting anywhere.

    Maybe its time to change your mindset from "this is the job I want" to "these are the jobs that are available", and see if any would suit ?

    To paraphrase the Beatles -Helter Skelter, you may need to get to the bottom, before you can go back to the top



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,989 ✭✭✭tinytobe


    Theoretically all good and valid points.

    However the experience tells me that I sadly get a rejection, just because I haven't had the right experience for this particular role, - even though, I would be confident in doing it.

    It's hard to broaden the horizons while job hunting, not from my perspective, but for selling the idea to a decision maker who's going to hire me or not.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,277 ✭✭✭Oscar_Madison
    #MEGA MAKE EUROPE GREAT AGAIN


    What about setting yourself up in self employed consultancy or look to see if you can onboard with an existing small consultancy? As others have said, the market is flaky at present anyway so employers committing to fulltime employment is not where things are at right now - a lot of uncertainty out there given the US situation.

    In terms of cross skilling, compliance and IT is a growth area so getting compliance related qualifications could help you - my simple point is, if what you’re doing isn’t working you need to try something else - roles are being disbanded in companies as we speak so ensure whatever your skills are that they’re in demand both now and into the near future



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,989 ✭✭✭tinytobe


    The job applications are only going in a cycle.

    I apply to the job posting, and get a rejection that "after careful consideration, we have decided to move forward with other candidates that better align with the team's current needs".

    However in reality they don't. The job will be advertised again, - and I jokingly and ironically apply again.

    This doesn't only concern one single company but many more.

    They are looking for candidates, they aren't happy with my application, and start looking again, - however they don't seem to be able to find any candidates, otherwise they wouldn't re-advertize all the time.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,277 ✭✭✭Oscar_Madison
    #MEGA MAKE EUROPE GREAT AGAIN


    Companies don’t like older over qualified people - especially if much younger less qualified people have to manage them -regardless of what “equal opportunities” language they may spout- it’s a fact of working life that you’re going to have to get used to.

    The IT world is also turning on its head - that’s seen in all the traditional technology consulting firms right now- profits are down and the future is uncertain - new skills are emerging and older skills no longer required. It sounds like you need to reinvent yourself -start looking at your transferable skills and see what that brings - but you’re the wrong side of 50 so self employed consultant may be the way to go - look at training jobs also - years of experience may be valuable here in order to teach others. You’ve had 6 months of rejection trying the same thing each time so you need to try something different is my point



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,346 ✭✭✭witchgirl26


    Just on jobs being re-advertised. I've seen it happen a bit where someone is offered the role & initially accepts but then turns it down. So the company puts the job ad back up.

    And yes you might not fit the role and that is why you weren't considered. But instead of focusing on what a company is doing (because they are entitled to put whoever they want in a role or keep advertising until they find the perfect fit), maybe focus on areas your own application could improve.

    Would it be worth talking to a recruiter in the area you're in to get a better direction. I know some aren't great but I've found in the past the ones that are specialised in an area are pretty good. And they'll help tailor CVs etc for the particular role as opposed to it being generic. Are you up on LinkedIn? Because that is a massive way to get yourself noticed and have both companies and recruitment agents contact you.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,989 ✭✭✭tinytobe


    Ageism is sadly rampant with US American IT companies in Ireland, especially with their mulilingual staff. They hire specifically in the late 20ies to mid 40ies maximum age group but never if someobody in the 50ies. Of course HR will deny this outright and do everything possible to subdue any other opinion in this direction.

    Late 20ies to mid 40ies also rarely stay long, they don't or rarely have the financial background to buy a property, end up renting in shared housing for a couple of years, with luck they make a bit of money, but then tend to leave again.

    In Ireland Salesforce, Google, Meta and Linked in are famous for that, Microsoft and Oracle is a bit more senior and more long term, but equally difficult to get hired.

    Oddly on the British market, I don't get ageism this much. The problem I have on the British market is that even though my age doesn't put them off, I end up in 5 or 6 stage interview cycles often resulting in either ghosting or rejection. Age for rejection couldn't be it, they've seen my CV several times by then, so it's more likely it's too many candidates.

    Self employment isn't for everybody. I've known some who were successfull, but I also knew a lot who weren't and had to pay for that. It's simply a risk not everyone can take.



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