Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

Quin_Dub · 28-02-2025 10:07AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123217734#Comment_123217734

Disagree completely.

You want your players to have confidence and to try things.

Had he tried to offload from his right hand , his arm would have been knocked and the ball would have gone to ground , if he'd held on and taken the ball to ground the momentum of the move would have been lost.

As the comment on the link says - A guy having that level of confidence at his age/experience level is amazing and the very very last thing you'd want to do as a Manager would be to try to coach that out of him by bollocking him for taking a risk and backing his skills.

Tommybojangles · 28-02-2025 10:56AM

I'm well used to Jamie Heaslip hate and there was a lot of it even when he was palying but i think mostly due to his personality which rubbed some people up the wrong way. But he was an absolutely amazing rugby player and Doris has a bit to go before he passes him out

phog · 28-02-2025 11:04AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123217904#Comment_123217904

CJ (who incidentally wasn't rated by a core group of fans) in taking over the No8 jersey from Jamie was seamless enough. I don't think there was any drop off in quality

Tommybojangles · 28-02-2025 11:08AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123217928#Comment_123217928

I don't think you can compare the 2. A bit like saying ringrose took over from BOD seamlessly (Jared Payne era was short) We were lucky to have someone so solid come through and fill the gap but as an all round player Stander wasn't close. Also Heaslips' prime was probablt 09-13/14ish so the drop off wasn't as pronounced a few years later when Stander took over

Bogwoppit · 28-02-2025 11:11AM

At this point in time I think Heaslip should be regarded as our best 8, I fully expect Doris to surpass him though.

When people question Heaslip I'm always reminded of Sean O Brien’s massive ruck clearout against France, it was a phenomenal clearout but most people don’t notice that O Brien wasn’t first to that breakdown.
Who was there first and held off 3 French players on his own?

https://youtu.be/XVUHFFUvjKk?si=k6scA_SJtGqHeJKt

phog · 28-02-2025 11:17AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123217938#Comment_123217938

I suppose if your mind is set in stone then I won't change it now but I think you're understating CJ's game.

Quin_Dub · 28-02-2025 11:22AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123217967#Comment_123217967

Stander was a very good player and Ireland were lucky to have him while he was there ,however he was never in the conversation for being the best in the world in his position while he was playing.

Heaslip was , as is Doris today.

Hey_Ho_Lets_Go_3 · 28-02-2025 11:52AM

https://imgur.com/XmQhheB

Outrageous.

Former Former Former · 28-02-2025 12:03PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123217748#Comment_123217748

I fully expect Doris to go down as one of our greatest players, in any position, if he sustains his current level.

Heaslip is already in that class IMO. He was undisputed first choice for a decade which puts him in the POC/Sexton/BOD category, and he did it in the back row, where Ireland have always had the most depth.

Clegg · 28-02-2025 12:03PM

Outstanding improvisation from Prendergast.

And in fairness it's equally impressive from Porter to switch from being about to clear out a ruck to instead gathering the offload. You can see him hunch over to make a clear out. This all happened in a split second.

sydthebeat · 28-02-2025 12:04PM

CJ was the perfect no 8 for that period which was the tail end of schmidths era and saw us play a very heavy carry / possession / ruck based game. He was an on field leader and an inspiration when he played. I have a lot of love for CJ in green and he was absolutely adored in red.

On the world stage however he played in the era of Faletau at his best, Kieran Read, Parisse, Vunipola (for a short time), David Pocock and its hard to say that CJ was at that level.

As much as its a pointless subjective exercise, but the moment id have CJ just behind Heaslip and Doris as Irelands best no 8s of the pro era.

salmocab · 28-02-2025 12:07PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123218107#Comment_123218107

The backrow at the time of Stander POM and SOB I think it was, always seemed to me less than the sum of its parts. 3 great players but something wasn’t quite right with it, balance? Although that’s hard to quantify

almostover · 28-02-2025 12:17PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123217517#Comment_123217517

I agree with a lot of what you've said. VdF has been top class for 4-5 seasons now. Also has been an important player in all Irish success under Farrell also. And yes you're right, he's still playing well, but the perception is that his form is a little off just because of the heights he reached in his WPotY season. I just think he's in a position where the competition is very strong for Lions selectio .

I would disagree about the winners and losers point though. Jac Morgan is putting in serious performances despite being in the poorest Welsh side since the late 1990s. Tom Curry is in an bang average English side and playing well despite that. VdF went toe to toe with them both in recent weeks and came off 2nd best in both cases IMO.

darkened_scrum · 28-02-2025 12:52PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123218121#Comment_123218121

Totally agree with this, that backrow never really lived up to billing. Maybe the injuries had caught up with SOB and he was past his peak. And personally I don't think Stander is in the same bracket as Heaslip or Doris.

sydthebeat · 28-02-2025 01:01PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123218121#Comment_123218121

i think it was more our style of play when we had that back row. Schmidt tightened up at test level compared to club level, so the rampaging runs we'd see at club level from CJ and SOB weren't realised as much at test level because we became a 'look for contact, ruck and recycle' style team (in the main). SOBs body certainly was letting him down as well, poor lad couldn't string 3 games together without getting injured.

from a balance point of view its actually a very good mix. you have the lineout and rucking opinion at 6, you have a fetcher, speed and wider carrying threat at 7 and you have a heavy traffic carrying 8 who is a good mix of the other two. i dont think we played to our strengths there, but we were winning in the main, so it probably wasnt questioned as much as it should have been.

salmocab · 28-02-2025 01:15PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123218284#Comment_123218284

Yeah possibly so, it just didn’t seem to be where it should have been based on the personnel. On the balance thing not sure it’s as simple as one does this one that, think they need to work as a unit and it’s hard to quantify that.

ionadnapóca · 28-02-2025 01:48PM

Okay

Honorable mention for CJ here also. For that Grand Slam, Aus Tour and NZ wins he was heroic.

A great BR: POM, JvdF, CJ & Leavy.

vdF got injured, then Conan, & Jordi Murphy filled the gaps.

Another honorable mention - Willie Duggan.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/sport-columnists/arid-20457930.html

https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/people/willie-duggan-a-ferocious-ruthless-rugby-great-1.3205244

For Petes Sake · 28-02-2025 04:32PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123217287#Comment_123217287

Anyone who thinks Heaslip faltered towards the end of his career is someone who wants to believe it is true.

He was nominated for World Player of the Year just 3 months before his last ever game.

The bloke is thoroughly unlikeable, which rubbed a lot of people up the wrong way. However people used that to spread lies about him being sh*te.

Anyone who thinks Doris is at that level yet is suffering from recency bias. Heaslip was a truly sensational player. There's no reason to think Doris won't make it to that level though.

ionadnapóca · 28-02-2025 04:51PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123219148#Comment_123219148

Hi POM,

Its ok. We all know you are still upset with Doris taking over as captain.

We also ALL agree with you about Heaslip (except the part where you say Doris is not at his level).

Enjoy your retirement.

We still love you.

sincerely,

Irish rugby supporters

p.s. Go Get Grand Slam No.3.

For Petes Sake · 28-02-2025 04:59PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123219214#Comment_123219214

Doris isn't at Heaslip's level yet. Anyone who believes so simply does not remember how good Heaslip was.

No reason why Doris can't surpass that level, though.

El Vino · 28-02-2025 05:26PM

I've not been a fan of some of Heaslips post playing stuff but he was an incredible player. Dorris does a bit of everything at a very high level but people like Ferris, SOB and Wallace were elite level carriers, Wallace was probably our fastest ever back row, remember him chasing down wingers and rag dolling them more than once

Podge_irl · 28-02-2025 06:28PM

MOD: Some off-topic posts/replies deleted. Let's stick to rugby folks

sprucemoose · 28-02-2025 06:28PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123218121#Comment_123218121

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123218259#Comment_123218259

that backrow played together a total of 2 times. it generally was stander SOB heaslip or POM VDF/Leavy Stander after Heaslip retired, the POM SOB Stander backrow only played against england in 2017 and wales in 2019

AbusesToilets · 28-02-2025 06:32PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123219254#Comment_123219254

Would disagree on that. I think Doris has a more complete game than Heaslip did. He does the grunt work, but has maintained an effective carrying game. I also think he's a better leader, he's frequently the best player on the pitch, in games full of star players

ionadnapóca · 28-02-2025 06:43PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123219254#Comment_123219254

Personally I think Doris is the better all rounder compared to Heaslip.

I remember plenty though. The 2009-2016 Heaslip was exceptional.

It was crime against rugby that the 2011 RWC and 2012 6N sides were so limited by the coaching team.

-Murray, Sexton; Healy, Best, Ross; DOC, POC; Ferris, SOB, Heaslip and 18.D.Ryan 19.Leamy/POM 20. Reddan-

I'll leave you with my favorite stat about you:

Since your 6N debut in 2012 Ireland have won The Championship more often than not when you have started at least 4 of the games.

'24 Win The Championship - 4 Starts

'23 Win The Grand Slam - 4 Starts

'22 No win - 2 starts

'21 No win - 1 start

'20 No win - 2 starts

'19 No win - 5 starts (wheels coming off)

'18 Win The Grand Slam - 5 Starts

'17 No win - 1 start

'16 No win - 0 starts

'15 Win Championship - 4 Starts

'14 Win Championship - 4 Starts

'13 No win - 5 starts (wheels had come off)

'12 No win - 1 start

2025 2 Starts and Counting…..

sydthebeat · 28-02-2025 06:50PM

interesting blue sky thread about fly halves tackling in this years 6 nations competition:

https://bsky.app/profile/rugbykino.bsky.social/post/3ljawhatmn223

essentially the conclusion is:

So, looking at the flyhalves who are more notably first up tacklers (70-80%), Prendergast doesn't come out of this too badly. Big overall tackle attempt numbers, with a success rate in line with or better than those other 1st up tacklers (Russell, Jalibert).

The real outlier though, is Fin Smith. Similar tackle attempts to Prendergast, similarly likely to be the 1st up tackler, similar high low split, but with an 82.4% success rate. So, Prendergast definitely has a defensive benchmark to aspire to, but he's not quite at the bottom of the pile.

what the statsd really DO show however is the outright lies that some quarters are trying to make out that hes been hidden in defense and "protected" by other players.

He is certainly been targeted by the opposition, with him being the 1st tackler 72% of the time (3rd behind russell and Jailbert, who has much less minutes played) but Prendergast tackle success rate is better than Russells, who is most peoples choice for leading the lions at 10 this year.

ersatz · 28-02-2025 06:58PM

It's easy to forget how good Dan Leavy was considering he was forced to retire at 25. If he'd kept progressing god knows the level he would have reached. He really did have it all.

salmocab · 28-02-2025 07:07PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123219517#Comment_123219517

Fair enough, memory is hazy enough on it, my memory of the backrow around them was when Stander moved to 8 from 6 after Heaslip’s retirement that it didn’t function as well in general.

P.Walnuts · 28-02-2025 07:15PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123219626#Comment_123219626

Yup, he was elite. Such a pity.

AbusesToilets · 28-02-2025 07:57PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123219668#Comment_123219668

Stander was a very limited player in comparison.

Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

Comments