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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,367 ✭✭✭sparky42


    Assuming everything stayed the same, the least worst time for us to have got serious about defence and global threats and abilities would have been post GFA/911, after that it would have been post the Crimea Invasion, after that it would have been immediately after the second Russian invasion. Each time would have cost money, more each time of course, but cheaper than now.

    Now without question is the second worst time to be looking/needing substantial defence procurement, take for example Denmark who is going to spend an extra 5 billion on procurement, it would have been 10 billion, but there's no capacity within the defence industry to use that extra money right now. The Worst time of course will be the future, but we are still slow motion in our ambitions.

    It was utterly predictable and something I've argued about before with out slow pace of LoA2 capital investment, and its only going to get worse before it gets better.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,427 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    Absolutely.

    Interesting reader poll on The Journal today, 'should Ireland spend more on Defence?'

    Now I know those things are utterly unscientific, but given the tendency of The Journal and its readership to be younger and more leftist, I thought the outcome was notable nonetheless:

    8,942 responses, 76% YES 20% NO 4% UNSURE



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,679 ✭✭✭California Dreamer


    The Irish government appears to be subtly conditioning public opinion by spoon-feeding the media carefully framed articles on defense, military spending, and the capabilities of the Army, Navy, and Air Corps. Over time, these narratives emphasize vulnerabilities, international obligations, and the need for modernization, gradually normalizing the idea of increased defense budgets.

    By repeatedly highlighting gaps in Ireland’s defense infrastructure and comparing spending to other nations, the media primes the public for what would have once been seen as excessive military expenditure.

    As these stories accumulate, the notion of significantly higher spending shifts from being a political challenge to an accepted necessity, paving the way for large, sustained increases that would have been difficult to justify in a single move.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,367 ✭✭✭sparky42


    I'm not sure I'd given them the benefit of the doubt that its "planned" to ramp things up like that, I would say its more reality is intruding more and more into the Government's assumptions and lack of interest in the area.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,427 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    While I understand your cynicism Sparky, there are a relative blizzard of developments, such as this news, which suggest things are picking up pace.

    Interestingly, the first thing the Tánaiste did on return from the Munich Security Conference was go to McKee and meet all the General Staff, GOCs and Flag.

    Screenshot_20250220_132735_Instagram.jpg


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,367 ✭✭✭sparky42


    yes and no, is there progress happening, of course. Is it coming close to the level of ambition and even more important the pace needed given how we seem to be sliding closer and closer to an even larger European war? No.


    To go back to the post I was replying to, that maybe there’s some sort of planned PR campaign to highlight issues/weaknesses/threats in order to make the voters more willing to spend on defence, I still say no. First off because that would demonstrate a scale of planned coordination across two government cycles at least that none of the current crop have ever demonstrated. Second there’s not a huge reason/need to, polling has consistently returned a majority in favour of defence spending increases for a number of years even before 2022.


    I think the increase in coverage is being driven by events rather than plans, and I don’t think our Government has still realised reality. Look how quickly Martin was out saying “increasing defence spending doesn’t make us a military power” I mean first what does that even mean and second what does it suggest is his upper limit of what he sees? Varadkar when asked I think shot down even the idea of ASW capability for example, does Martin think that’s too much still?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,797 ✭✭✭✭banie01


    I cant say I'm at all happy with our subcontracting the design for Command and force structure out to the Yanks. While they most certainly have the think tank capacity, their success in transferring their doctrine into actual operationalisation leaves a lot to be desired.
    We, and not justt "because Trump" need to be focusing our operationalisation efforts upon well proven Western European, Pelagic and above all else, European supplied solutions.
    Sweden, France and to some extent the UK are the best options IMO, with of those?
    France is IMHO the country best placed to both lead the way in advising and designing force structure as well as supplying equipment for every operational need.
    We have urgent and in maritime patrol and air defence quite a desparate need, I'd much rather that any additional funds we add to the defence budget are spent within the EU and with as much potential for local offsetting as possible.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,427 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    Simon Harris on VMTV News:

    "I have instructed officials to prepare for greatly enhanced spending on defence infrastructure, and also to examine procurement strategies to see how we can acquire equipment more quickly"

    "I intend to invest aggressively in defence to protect our infrastructure"

    He also said the he will soon bring forward a memo to cabinet to progress the removal of the Triple Lock.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,367 ✭✭✭sparky42


    he has the memo already so when it goes to cabinet is his personal choice as for more spending, is he suggesting a supplementary budget or just the briefed review for the spending plan in the summer?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,243 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    So looks like the Radar & Armour order will be going in this year. They mention subsea awareness. Is this some sort of modular sonar system been fitted to the becketts or a new ship ?

    https://www.rte.ie/news/2025/0222/1498201-defence-forces/



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,367 ✭✭✭sparky42


    the interview in the examiner with him said “weeks” so let’s see I guess?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,797 ✭✭✭✭banie01


    I'd be very curious to know if the subsea capability is going to be a refit option too. At a guess, I'd hazard that any refit capability is going to have to be a towed array? Hull mounted without ensuring adequate machinery silencing at the build phase would IMO rule out bow sonar and similar mountings.

    Towed array is very effective but the main necessity becomes training operators and retaining them once experienced. I wonder what assistance we could eke out of an AI trained on sound library any allies might share?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,427 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    All of the NS ships are capable of receiving an improved sonar. Well I'm not sure about the Lake Class, but its not as important for them anyway.

    Its more than that though, Ireland needs to be offering funding and facilitation for an improved cooperative undersea surveillance system with the EU, as a matter of urgency.

    There can now be no reliance on the US Navy, and the remaining NATO forces are already under serious pressure for resources for similar work in the Baltic.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,948 ✭✭✭thomil


    This might sound insane, but I couldn’t help but think back to a game I used to play, SCS Dangerous Waters. It’s ancient at this point, having been released in 2005, but it was released by Sonalysts, a company that was at the time also producing training software for the US Navy. I remember it being extremely detailed on the systems front, especially with regards to sonar and ASW systems, to the point where I wondered whether that kind of stuff should be out in the public domain. I think it’s still available on Steam and whilst I know that any systems knowledge will be a) out of date and b)heavily redacted anyways, the principles of sound recognition and figuring out how many propellers a ship has, Target Motion Analysis and stuff like that should still be valid.

    As I said, it sounds insane and I know it. But given that many flight schools, both civilian and in some cases military, use Microsoft Flight Simulator as part of their training program, it’s at least worth a shot.

    Good luck trying to figure me out. I haven't managed that myself yet!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,797 ✭✭✭✭banie01


    Nothing insane about it if the validity of the audio model is correct IMO. I have no doubt at all that such simulation software is used by Navies and as someone who partakes in a little flight swimming myself, the effort that folk put into fidelity on those models is the insane part 😉

    War thunder might get the headlines for leaks, but spend a bit of time on DCS or IL2 forums and the attention to detail is intense.

    Any and all training and assistance tools we can lay hands on, must be considered. I'd reinforce an earlier comment I've made,

    We, and not justt "because Trump" need to be focusing our operationalisation efforts upon well proven Western European, Pelagic and above all else, European supplied solutions.

    We need to ensure we liaise with our allies to gain as much a headstart as possible. I'd also hazard that Sweden has a lovely library of Russian sonar signatures given the long history of Baltic shenanigans.

    **Edit**

    Game is still available too



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,060 ✭✭✭Markcheese


    Whats the difference between the ex- oil services ships the UK have purchased - refitted and repurposed , and the sub sea survey ships that the Irish state own , like the Tom Crean , and Graine mhaol , ?

    Slava ukraini 🇺🇦



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,243 ✭✭✭roadmaster




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,243 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    The order for Armour and Radar innthe next few weeks?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,367 ✭✭✭sparky42


    from the article:


    Mr Harris said that this would mean more investment in “recruitment and retention” and “aggressive procurement”, with a primary radar system weeks away from going to tender.“I’ve instructed my officials in the Department of Defence to pursue a much more aggressive procurement strategy in terms of radar and sonar.“We need to get access to this as quickly as possible, because we have obligations to ourselves, and I think we have obligations to the wider world in terms of our coastline.“We live in a country where our sea space is an awful lot larger than our land space, and we need to make sure we give our Defence Forces, our naval service, and our air corps the capabilities there in terms of monitoring.”

    Also the changes to the Triple Lock are to go to cabinet next month.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,243 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    St Patricks day in the white house Trump announces the sale of a Lockheed Martin Radar system to ireland.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,367 ✭✭✭sparky42


    I mean not the worst idea to buy him off, but I doubt it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,797 ✭✭✭✭banie01


    Have any of the regular contributors to this thread or sub forum had any interesting visitors to their LinkedIn recently?

    I've had someone from NAVFAC, (US Naval Facilities Command) taking a look at mine this week. Weird coincidence.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,797 ✭✭✭✭banie01




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,243 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    There on to you. Throw your phone in to the sea and hope for the best



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,427 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    We shouldn't be buying **** all from America. Let Lockheed and Raytheon and all the rest feel the pain from overseas orders too.

    Those comments from Harris are infuritating and long serving senior DF officers must be livid. You'd swear to read it that he has just slid in on his shrimp sandwich and diagnosed all the shortcomings and opened the cheque book.

    GOVERNMENTS HAVE BEEN TOLD THIS STUFF AND WARNED ABOUT IT FOR 5 DECADES SIMON, IN GOOD TIMES AND BAD. 🤬



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,797 ✭✭✭✭banie01


    🤣🤣

    I'm not too bothered tbh, my username here (and everywhere) is easily enough linked back to me IRL.

    What is interesting? Is that there's nothing naval or military related in my work history that they'd be looking at 🤔



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,202 ✭✭✭jonnybigwallet


    Anyway..monitoring EEZ is all very well. Some more aggressive and dangerous kit is needed as well. I'd suggest a dozen of them Super Tucanos...top of the range version. And why arse around for years gettin consultants treadin water to come up with a bespoke ship? Simple answer: go to Fincantiery Vard and buy two of the top of the range series 7 corvettes. Also a pair of them German or Swedish subs. That will do the trick to scare the **** out if Jonny Russian and tell him we mean business!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 435 ✭✭Grassy Knoll


    it would be boxing clever IMHO - it seems Mr Trump is into transactional politics so announcing the purchase of kit we were acquiring anyway could tick a key, strategic policy boxes …



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,367 ✭✭✭sparky42


    I don’t disagree with you, however if this purchase is something that’s been nailed in since before his election and his openly siding with Russia, which is likely, and not going ahead means another period of time while the powers that be accept something else and go forward, is it better to bite the bullet and go for it?


    There’s no perfect answer to the question of Europe going all European for defence, with nations facing much larger questions like the future of the F35 purchases for example.


    As. Harris and his comments, of course since the founding of the state the same situation has been highlighted over and over, and arguably we are “no worse” than we have ever been, since all we have ever been is “feck all and ask the U.K.”, despite some fantasy’s on social media.Lets take the win that we now have the Tánaiste openly talking about LoA3 and the price tag, it’s better than we have had in the past.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 300 ✭✭mupper2


    As we saw yesterday with Poland's president heading to DC for what he thought was a several hour long talk, he got 10 minutes…Poland is currently buying tens of billions worth of US kit..



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