Russia-Ukraine War (continuing)

They might complain but many still think it's exporting countries that pay the tariffs and not the US consumer. Trump will have them believe that it's the foreign exporters that are making imports more expensive.

Logic and reason are absent.

If you want us to take this logic seriously, lay out for us the realistic and obvious path that Putin could have chosen that would result in both Ukraine and Finland staying out of NATO.

He has already fired 1000s of people and I suppose at least 50% of them voted for him. He doesn't ask if they are MAGA before firing them.

The EU shouldn't have anything to do with defense. It's a basket case of an organisation that is far too slow and indecisive to be involved in defence. It's even more to blame for outcome in Ukraine than Trump.

European countries keep delegating responsibility to the EU but it is just too dysfunctional to get anything meaningful done.

Have you ever heard of self determination? Ukraine, Finland etc have a recognized right to join such defensive organizations if they meet the criteria. The possibility of either of them joining is not grounds for an invasion. You seem to be under some impression that Russia have some right to prevent such things, they don't. Same way as they shouldn't have the right to prevent Ukraine from having such trade agreements which is what got Yanukovych ousted.

Also let's remember Russia is the one that was actively threatening Ukraine, they literally invaded Crimea.

Why not answer the actual question posed in the post you're replying to? As opposed to distracting us with easily refuted claims about NATO (ask Serbia or Libya how 'defensive' it is) or child-like dreaming about the 'recognized rights' of nations?

Mod: Warned for uncivil posting

The principles of MAD mean NATO is not a threat to Russia unless Russia attacks them first. Trying to draw comparisons to smaller countries who aren't nuclear armed simply isn't a realistic or fair comparison. Infact you could view it as child-like dreaming.

To add to @eightieschewbaccy points.

NATO is only a threat to Putin's plans to invade a country. He had no direct plans on Finland, so when it joined, he even moved troops away from the border. He had plans to invade Ukraine, which is why he invaded before it could join NATO.

Countries are free to join NATO, Russia was even invited for the provisional stages. They signed up with the North Atlantic Cooperation Council with other Eastern European countries, and also NATO's Partnership for Peace program.

If Putin didn't want to absorb other country's territories into Russia none of these issues would exist. Last I checked no one wants to invade nuclear armed Russia. And the security "concerns" by Putin are completely moot because he's trafficking children and stealing resources from the country he is invading - demonstrating it's nothing to do with security and everything to do with conquest and imperialism.

Wild thought

Perhaps not attacking their neighbours would show neighbours of Russia not to join defensive alliances?

There is nothing Nermal about likes of Russia destabilising and invading multiple of their neighbours

on the basis that most of the refugees that have come to Ireland since that whole thing started years ago have come due to American influence / interference in certain countries politics/economies. This has come as a very significant cost to Ireland . So maybe Ireland should INVOICE The US for the cost of all of this. And likewise for all of the other EU countries! After all we are all entitled to our ‘pound of flesh’

There are two three possibilities

Those “sympathetic” to Putin’s brainfarts are either:

• So gullible that they regurgitate the 💩 shoved their way without engaging a braincell (Trump possibly falls here)
• So cynical that they propagate Russian propaganda for a bottle of vodka or a box of eggs
• So far over the “I hate our way of life in west” line, but yet for some reason don’t do us all a favour and move to Russia, instead wanting us to endup like that ********** place

The arguments made are akin to a rapist asking the victim why does she keep struggling, pure nonsense that needs to be called out.

The Saudi. Us/ Russian talks ARE about the normalisation of the relationship between them so as to increase business between them and MAKE MORE MONEY for you know who. The UKr thing probably will be discussed but it is just an irritant to the both of them . There will be a ‘blunt instrument ‘ used such as ‘ the new boundary is the existing front lines - both of you just stop shooting and withdraw both your forces from it and FORGET about NATO . Job done. Now that did not take toooooooooo long - did it.

And where will the border be - that’s the ELEPHANT in the room

Like when was the last legitimate election Russia had?

The borders are an issue whenever the war actually is finished. But the security of Ukraine following an agreement is even more important, because with that, those borders won't truly be set.