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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,427 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    Ah yeah I meant both weight and dimensions.

    To illustrate, a Boxer unladen is 36 tons, fully loaded 38.5 tons. Whereas a Jaguar, the heaviest of the Scorpion trio, is 22 tons UL and 25 tons FL.

    Its a hugely significant difference and probably not great in a country that gets so much rain. While for driving on public roads, the Boxer would exceed the maximum normal load for a 4-axle rigid chassis and the tonnes per metre ratio. In other words, every time they travelled they would require an abnormal load permit and escort.

    Even if that were waived under a DF dispensation, the damage to frequently travelled minor roads, eg near bases and training grounds, would be enormous.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,367 ✭✭✭sparky42


    Also for while we are still doing UNFIL and assuming that tasking continues, I can't imagine those roads would enjoy that level of weight either.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,427 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    No.

    In fact, you'd wonder how the European armies would fare with them on wintry battlefield in northeast Poland.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,243 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    Harris comments below on Irish Forces in Ukraine. When peace comes in the future when ever that maybe and this state is asked to deploy i would say that would bye bye Unifl.

    https://www.rte.ie/news/2025/0218/1497341-ireland-politics/



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,367 ✭✭✭sparky42


    Suppose it depends, could just be the forces attached to the EU Battlegroup, assuming we've binned the Triple Lock as I don't see anyone wanting a UN Mission for Ukraine. In reality though getting the bodies/equipment for a credible force is going to stretch all the European nations, even the big spenders.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,243 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    Sky had a report on it yesterday saying a min of 100k will be needed and when you add in rotations and training it will be a massive undertaking



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,367 ✭✭✭sparky42


    yep, as you say factor in rotations, training, unplanned replacements and at least 250k of people are needed, if not 300k. That’s why if it does end up with the US having Europe do it, everyone of the nations should drop any “Pacific tilt” crap and tell the US to go to hell if it asks for any out of Europe support.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,202 ✭✭✭jonnybigwallet


    I'll bet we put 500 men in there when the time comes. Weather will improve soon so no probs with volunteers.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,367 ✭✭✭sparky42


    Interesting article from John Dowling in the Indo about some of the conversations he's had with figures in Brussels on our "stance"…

    https://www.independent.ie/opinion/comment/john-downing-eu-may-turn-blind-eye-to-our-neutrality-but-ignoring-national-defence-is-not-on/a1156525291.html



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,427 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    The weather?

    Any intervention force will be there for years. Probably decades....

    I heard in the last few days, though, that even European NATO members will seek a UN mandate for any mission.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,243 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    i can see the IDA having a word with there overlords about this.

    https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2025/0219/1497521-us-senator-defence



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,367 ✭✭✭sparky42


    Interesting that Mac Neil weighed in on it when she was on Radio 1, given she's been moved out of that brief. But forget the IDA having issues, between Trumps views on trade imbalances and defence spending I wouldn't be hugely surprised if Martin is hoping for a shut down so he can avoid what will be a very uncomfortable Paddy's day trip.

    But more than once we all said it would external pressures or some sort of complete disaster might force us out of our screwed up position on defence. It seems there's no question that our cop out has run out of road with both Brussels and Washington.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,427 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    The good Senator is just looking to send us an invoice for services rendered. I wouldn't blame him.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,367 ✭✭✭sparky42


    still surprised that the U.K. hasn’t been charging us…



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,127 ✭✭✭purplepanda


    https://www.pressreader.com/ireland/irish-independent/20250218/281702620438806?srsltid=AfmBOorlnEMs1pyN6toAT8yvR8C2Ot5ieNoaDScUFTvTHt9yJ-0iHnX4

    Irish Independent defence article mentioned earlier for those getting firewalled.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,875 ✭✭✭✭Esel
    Not Your Ornery Onager


    .…

    Not your ornery onager



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,202 ✭✭✭jonnybigwallet


    Delighted this chap has put his shoulder to the wheel!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,427 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    Screenshot_20250219_183225_TheJournalie.jpg

    Jesus lads.

    The disconnect that goes on between politicians and the military beggars belief sometimes. We can't even turn up as a force protection unit in the EUBG without getting a friggin lift! And it was like pulling teeth for the servicemen representatives to get equivalence for the overseas allowances for the same deployment, because of the small minded penny-pinching of the sclerotic unter-officials in DoD/DPER.

    Now to be fair, its very easy for Martin to say this, when he's insisting on a UN mandate which he knows will NEVER come, all while shilling for reform of the Triple Lock domestically!

    I despair of the hypocrisy sometimes.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,367 ✭✭✭sparky42


    To be fair, the allowances thing wouldn't be relevant if there was an actual deployment, not that its easier to explain how we are going to be able to supply anything other than a token formation as we currently are.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,427 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    Another 12 observers job. In the rear with the gear.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,427 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    I see in The Guardian that BAe Systems Defence has an order book backlog of €94 Billion. They sold 30 Billion sterling of product last year and made 10% profit.

    This is problem I see with our orders for big stuff. We're already a very long way down the queue.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,427 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    Well, this day keeps getting better.

    I suppose its no biggie, because its not like we have a crew of 60 odd sitting on their packs at the Base, waiting to take her back into service.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,957 ✭✭✭CrabRevolution


    It's hard to keep up; only last week the government were saying that current geopolitics has rendered the UN unfit for purpose and we need to start operating on our own remit. Now the UN is once again the only source of legitimacy!

    Or as you say, a convenient excuse for not making any Irish commitment to anything.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,243 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    we could deploy to ukraine no problem but it would mean withdrawing from Unifil



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,367 ✭✭✭sparky42


    Or the fact that the Triple Lock as is, is still the legal requirement for any deployment currently…



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,796 ✭✭✭✭banie01


    There will be no UN mandate for any Ukraine mission whilst Russia holds a UNSC Veto. The EU countries, ourselves included, using the UN mandate needed caveat? Have zero intention of supporting any such mission IMHO.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,243 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    The DOD will be praying it was the Contractor at the helm



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,427 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    It seems from the article that it was. Could be wrong.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,427 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    I don't think thats actually true anymore. With dwindling numbers, we had to pull out of Golan to staff the UNIFIL commitment. So I suspect it actually took a massive effort behind the scenes to get the correct mix of personnel for a combined battalion.

    Given the robust mission that would be, by necessity, policing a peace in Ukraine, and if it began in the next 24 months, I think we would have real trouble putting together a properly equipped and staffed battalion for the theatre in question.

    A force protection company or two, maybe. But a mechanised battalion, in the field, able for Russian drone skirmishes and thousands of mercenaries high as kites on the best Afghan? I don't think so.

    Whatever way this shakes out, any mission in northern and eastern Ukraine will make UNIFIL look like a ride at Disneyland.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,367 ✭✭✭sparky42


    If there was to be a tasking, which I can't see since apparently the US is talking about the Russian demand to pull US troops out of the Eastern NATO Members, which if it happens means pretty much all the rest of NATO ground forces are going to be committed to some degree in protection deployments.

    But If there was, I imagine we'd provide the forces attached to the EU Battlegroup as our first response, since it is one of the available ones for another two years.



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