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Arts Council wastes 7 mil

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,473 ✭✭✭✭Cluedo Monopoly


    Who did the implementation? I am guessing Big4 with a software partner e.g. Microsoft/Salesforce.

    What are they doing in the Hyacinth House?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,537 ✭✭✭jmcc


    The Irish Times and the Business Post have named the companies involved. According to the Business Post, 13 companies were involved.

    https://www.irishtimes.com/politics/2025/02/13/three-companies-that-shared-48m-from-arts-council-for-abandoned-it-project-named/

    https://www.irishtimes.com/culture/2025/02/13/arts-council-may-need-15m-more-to-replace-grants-system-after-53m-failure/

    Regards…jmcc

    Post edited by jmcc on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,482 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    You asked the question why, which is odd if know IT and read the report.

    Also...the stats suggest otherwise...

    "..The failure of IT costs the U.S. economy about $50-$150 billion annually..."

    "...UK wasting £37 billion a year on failed Agile IT Projects…"



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,482 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    No idea have you seen the spec. There's very little detail in the report.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,482 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    Well it was decided it's beyond their IT hence they outsourced it. It seems it was beyond the private sector companies tasked with delivering it.

    Financially it seems they pulled the plug on the project very late considering the missed timelines. That certainly was within the remit of everyone that is was reported to in the chain above.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 507 ✭✭✭itsacoolday


    I am being specific enough in saying there are some " artists " getting money from the arts Council every year, yet they do or produce very little. I know 2 of them. Look at the arts Council budget.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31,897 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    Maybe you should have submitted a tender yourself? You'd have made a fortune on it, right?

    No, that's not being specific enough. You make particular allegations of people getting money because they're 'in the know' but you've produced no evidence to support this. You make specific allegations of people producing with no artistic merit but you've produced no evidence to support this.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,473 ✭✭✭✭Cluedo Monopoly


    The Arts Council would submit the tender or request for tender. The private companies submit a tender response.

    I have been part of tender responses. You first try to have the most competitive price to win. After that its all about the professional services people baffling the customer with bullshit and showering them with Change Requests. Public sector managers do seem to be the most clueless and easy to manipulate because it's not their money and they get no reward for delivery. For example, these days you would tell them that they need even more security features and a dollop of AI - it's never refused. More cost…especially when you bring in the security "experts" at 2000 a day. The consultants know that the government is awash with money and they are all making hay.

    What are they doing in the Hyacinth House?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,482 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    Thanks. I'll read it later. Sounds interesting. Bit like reading Dilbert thus far.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 765 ✭✭✭StormForce13


    Even stranger to encounter someone who completely fails to grasp that the role of an Opposition is to hold the government of the day to account. But then again, one does encounter quite a lot of strange people on Boards.ie!

    Care to explain why the Opposition spokesperson(s) covering the Arts brief would be asking questions about the Childrens' Hospital, Housing, the bicycle shed, the Security Hut or the mobile phone pouches? Or is it simply that you don't really understand how opposition works?

    Asking questions about RTE would be valid, but that scandal had erupted almost a year earlier, so had been flogged to death in the Dáil and the relevant Committees long before the Phoenix article was published.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,482 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    These types of project the perfect storm, designed by committee with no concept of cost or timelines or IT. Then as you say built by companies who's primary aim is to extract as much income as possible. Conflicts of motivation all over the place.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31,897 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    The sheepish one is convinced that it would have been 'really easy' to do what the AC were asking.

    It's only 'really easy' when you haven't actually read the tender or had to go through a competitive process of having your 'really easy' solution being pitched against others. If there was a 'really easy' solution available, why didn't ANY of the large numbers of ICT companies in town, and indeed across the world, come with a proposal to do the 'really easy' solution at a 'really low' cost and win the contract?

    BTW, the response to a Request for Tenders is (surprise surprise) a tender.

    https://illion.tenderlink.com/blog/what-is-tendering/

    RFT: As mentioned, RFT is an abbreviation of Request For Tender. This is the document(s) the Buyer releases, inviting Suppliers to submit their responses. An RFT will typically include documents outlining the following:

    Tender: On the other hand, a tender is the document the Supplier submits in response to the RFT – essentially an offer to supply the goods/services the Buyer requires.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,473 ✭✭✭✭Cluedo Monopoly


    Not sure why you are referring to really easy all the time but in practice the tender request and tender response are named thus to avoid confusion. I have never heard of a tender response called simply a tender and I have worked on quite a few.

    Your link shows Tender Response as the first heading and goes on to say (you didn't copy and paste this but)...

    "However, the terminology can be a bit confusing because both words are often used interchangeably, so you might hear a Buyer say that they “published a tender”. What they really mean is that they’ve published a Request for Tender".

    No need to split hairs.

    What are they doing in the Hyacinth House?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31,897 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    The 'really easy' stuff was a response to this post.

    I've worked on lots of procurement too, public and private sector. Terminology can vary, but a tender is definitely a tender.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,473 ✭✭✭✭Cluedo Monopoly


    Here is a link from Gov.ie

    https://www.gov.ie/en/publication/42096-abcs-of-public-procurement/#t

    Tender Response Document –

     The submission document which must be completed by the supplier as part of their tender submission.

    Tenders -

     The process by which a contracting authority invites suppliers to bid for goods, services or works.

    What are they doing in the Hyacinth House?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,113 ✭✭✭✭Ash.J.Williams


    The list of covid payments to musicians was hilarious. All people working for the few connected management companies



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,473 ✭✭✭✭Cluedo Monopoly


    I think my link above from Gov.ie trumps your one. In practice a tender response is called just that.

    What are they doing in the Hyacinth House?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 507 ✭✭✭itsacoolday


    The 2 relatively unknown "artists" I know get a tiny slice of that. I know them quite well and they are very nice decent people so would not dream of even giving a pointer to their identity. However, they do not do much for whatever arts council income they get but really I think they should not be getting any income at all from the "Arts Council". They have admitted most of their "funding" comes from the arts Council.

    As a taxpayer, I hope the Arts Council gets better value for money for the other 139,900,000 euro or so it spends every year but I doubt it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31,897 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    Give us all a good laugh and share the list you're talking about, and we can see what you mean by 'all people'.

    You decided to correct my terminology, in the context of the Arts Council looking for IT services.

    The terminology that the Arts Council uses trumps your link to OGP above.

    The Arts Council "calls for tenders" so it's not unreasonable to refer to what they receive as 'tenders'.

    https://www.artscouncil.ie/tenders/



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31,897 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    The whole point of Arts Council funding is to support relatively unknown artists.

    If they were relatively known artists, they wouldn't need or get funding.

    Honestly, you seem to have missed the point completely.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,113 ✭✭✭✭Ash.J.Williams




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31,897 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko




  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    PPARS got chucked out and replaced with an off the shelf payroll from Sap.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    That describes any IT system once it is about two years old :-). It uses SQL Server 2000, lets upgrade it to SQL Server 2022. No that SQL stuff is old hat. No SQL is were its at. Lets rewrite everything and use MongoDB or whatever flavour of the day is.



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 42,992 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    I was involved in a private sector project which was a failure with a similar cost to the Arts Council failure.

    When I say I was involved, I was on the outskirts of the project and was involved in some testing and but each time, I would report back about major fundamental issues and would distance myself from it as much as possible as often as possible. It was a catastrophe and I and my team weren't going to sink with the Titanic.

    The project was to bring in data from multiple ERP systems and allow for consolidated & detailed reporting via a data lake. Myself & my team discovered that the contracted developers were bullsh1tters early on when they told some senior staff that they'd be able to push any piece of data to the lake and it would know what to do with it.

    The project failure had two major causes:

    • it was not regarded and managed as an IT project but a Group Finance project. The lad who assigned himself the role of PM was an accountant and also the main project sponsor. He was the main person providing requirements and would then sign off on them. It was a joke. Changes were being approved (with an associated cost!) because they were being requested by the same person. We in IT would protest but sure who'd listen to us!
    • the company contracted to do the work oversold what they could do and employed developers in India who (not tarring all Indians with this) didn't document anything (requirements, specs, changes, project plans, etc), had no proper testing plans and I discovered whilst testing something that they were even developing in the PROD environment!. The biggest problem I found dealing with them was that they lied so much about what they were doing that you never knew lies from truth - you'd literally catch them doing something and would lie that they were doing it.

    The issues were being relayed back up to the CFO but seemed to be getting heavily diluted along the way (even by the then CIO).
    Myself and a colleague met with the subsequent CIO and filled him in over dinner & a few beers. He relayed the message on to the CFO the following morning and the sh1t hit the fan. The "PM" lad and his senior were eventually & quietly allowed find jobs elsewhere after almost a year but weren't given the kick in the hole that they deserved*. A complete waste of four years and six million quid!

    A new project was set up by the CFO to deliver the same end product and was managed by my department. It was managed as an IT project, delivered on-time (within six months), under budget and worked from the outset with widespread user adoption.

    So getting back to the Arts Council, we currently don't know why the project cost so much nor do we know who signed off on it or why - was it a sunken cost fallacy, was it blind governance, was it various factors? But some people here seem to be assuming that it is just public projects that fail or because of "Inept IT managers" or that it is the current minister's fault are possibly wide off the mark. Even McDonald's blew $1Bn on their failed "Innovate" project.

    * when the "PM" lad was leaving, he came to me wanting to shake my hand goodbye and I firmly and politely refused and told him where to go and to be honest it felt great seeing his look of surprise! Even when leaving, the prick didn't think he was responsible for such a failure despite it being said to him repeatedly for four years.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31,897 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    Their online system was ten years old at the time they decided to replace it. That's about eighty in Internet years.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,968 ✭✭✭Montage of Feck


    Any body handy with MS Access?

    🙈🙉🙊



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    That was wrong with it? Did the pages look dated? Offensive of the artistic types applying for grants.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,257 ✭✭✭✭castletownman


    Probably didn't have a 'prefer not to say' scroll down option for gender



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,851 ✭✭✭gameoverdude


    And then the money from tourism will make many more millions. I think money well spent.



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