Irish Property Market chat II - *read mod note post #1 before posting*

Not what was being suggested. Is there any thing else you think the government should tax if you don't like how the owner uses it? There are people with multiple vehicles, people that own art etc… What if people have big gardens that could that houses could be built on, do we force them to sell and/or tax them?

Equity release for older people has been a thing for decades - like a reverse mortgage, you borrow using house as security and have the cash to use as you like. Depending on your age you can borrow different LTV etc.

The numbers do stack up or nobody would do it. More people would do it too if not pressured by children not to "spend their inheritance".

A tax on income is a tax on work - which is a bad thing as it discourages work, because of excessive tax. Work is a good thing, it means stuff is being done.

Wealth on the other hand does not mean you did any work or anything productive to accrue it, wealth can be inherited, wealth can be gotten through tax loopholes so it isn't classed as income, and most importantly: wealth makes more wealth. Wealth taxes make far more sense than income taxes, but wealthy people have far more influence (on account of their.. you guessed it, 'wealth') and can set the narrative that wealth taxes are evil and that we are all just a few hard years away from being a millionaire.

Your post wasn't particularly difficult to understand. It was the fact you've repeatedly failed to actually provide a real world example of the claim you made, and instead gone on a few old man yells at clowd energy rants about bootstraps, thats the issue.

But thats a 'no' on the real world example you're apparently unable to provide then, I take it. As expected.

People need to pay for basic services. This doesn’t happen in Ireland, instead we load up on water levies for new builds in Cherrywood on young people while people up the road in Foxrock run swimming pools while paying no water charges.

The stark reality is that we have enough “housing capacity” in Ireland to house who we need to. We have the most under lived housing stock in Europe.

The fact that even if incentives are mentioned that people go ballistic is mental. Quite clearly there is a way here to improve society when doing even basic “nudge” type policy.

Way less stress… For a start, what value do you place on that? Working for appalling money and being robbed on accommodation, that others get for nothing, isnt something I recommend to people …

Most of the private sector jobs are in Dublin, so although only about 30% of the population live there, the percentage of career focused professionals that are (or would like to be) Dublin based is higher than 30% of the workforce.

But even with your 45k example, there is something amiss when a person paying 40% income tax is no better off than someone on the dole who is living in the same apartment complex as them.

The person on the dole also has greater security of tenure, doesn't need to worry about pension contributions (unlike the 45k full time worker), or medical appt costs and most importantly, has 40 hours a week extra free time vs the 45k full time worker.

There is no doubt about it that the middle earners, in Dublin especially, are very much screwed over.

Unless other reforms such as much more expedient dealing with defaulting tenants, removing the RPZ cap would just cause existing landlords to price in the risks they are taking rather than extra supply entering the market.

People use pay day loans and have credit card debts, doesn't make sound financial sense so pointing out they use them would not be proof it works. This applies to a reverse mortgages/equity release , they are terrible financial products and only the desperate really use them.

I am specifically asking you to work out the calculations to see how this would work. You are saying people should do this just to stay in their homes so we are talking long term calculations of about 20 years.

Income tax is on income is not a surprise. That it discourages work is an interesting take and I will admit I refused overtime/additional work due to tax. The thing is that meant they hired somebody else thus creating employment

Your take on wealth is very skewed. Some of what you said is ways some people gain their wealth but tax loopholes is really stretching it and part of another view. Others gain their wealth by using their taxed income to invest or buy things. Tou want to punish people for investing in their future while the governments around the world encourage investment for the future. An OAP living in the house they raised their family in did none of the things you said gives people wealth and you want to tax them.

You are talking about a form of communism which I doubt there is much support for not because the wealthy are stopping it but because the majority don't want it. There is also the constitution here that prevents it. Overall you appear to have a very naive and angry view of economic and tax with little understanding of reality and consequences but certainly pushing a narrative that would suit you.

What countries have a wealth tax like you are suggesting?

The Irish people did not like the water charges and the government caved. The people have spoken. You also have to remember PRSI was increased to pay for water and the representative fed-up by not knowing this when in Brussels. That is actually how water rates attempts came in.

I completely agree that we have masses of under occupied properties and have always suggested down sizing incentives but a very unpopular idea. Dublin in particular has masses of housing for families occupied by single residents. There should be a scheme to downsize within the area. Convert some of the properties for multiple OAPs and then get them to sell their homes to families. Won't happen unfortunately and it is not the government at fault.

What countries have a wealth tax like you are suggesting

France, Spain, Switzerland and Norway all have wealth taxes.

Many more have property only wealth taxes (not like our piddly LPT) and so do some US states.

Its far from communism - it's a way to ensure more efficient use of resources in the market.

But that is not the point you made (I’d also say water charges were a failure by that government to hold their ground more than anything else).

What exactly should home owners have to pay for?

The tax being proposed was a tax on those owning property would be taxed to match up people on about 40k without a property to be matched up with somebody who owns a house. It was to apply to all including OAPs homes. There was also the suggest it would replace income tax.

If you look up the countries you said already have such tax policies you would see all the exemptions and are quite low taxes. It would not fit the definition for the tax as suggested.

LPT was never a wealth tax and truly should have been a fee the resident should pay not the landowner. It is specifically to provide local amenities in an area.

The tax as suggested was certainly communism along with a suggestion of kicking the elderly out of their homes via taxation.

Not sure what what point I made that you claim that I am changing? Water charges should only have come in with a reduction on PRSI as it was meant to pay for water.

LPT is for local amenities people pay for other services by use. General taxation pays for all else. So I don't see what additional tax property owners should pay. If a property is rented the government get a lot of tax for it so I don't see why there should be more tax on it either. Derelict sites should incur some costs after a certain amount of time.

I was responding to

Then you engaged with my response. So you were responding to the initial suggestion too. If you were not aware of this it just shows you didn't pay attention to the context and just wanted to make up your own debate. You also didn't notice Spain's wealth tax includes art which you think is a laughable asset class.

Gary there is doing the same as you by arguing about different things than those being discussed

There is me thinking running away and not addressing questions/challenges put to a view to come back with pot shots was petty and immature.