Hamas strike on Israel - mod warning in OP updated 19/10/23

The problem is that it is not an isolated incident. It wasn’t a gaff that could be forgiven

It wasn't.

That was until they started seeing what was going on in Gaza and Palestine every night. Images of wanton slaughter, indiscriminate levelling of civilian areas, the murder of international journalists, children being used as playthings for snipers, the deliberate starvation tactics of withholding vital food and aid, the cynical bombing of refugee camps that civilians were told to seek shelter in, the targeted destruction of every type of medical facility and intentional killing of medical staff, the use of this conflict to steal yet more Palestinian land…the list goes on.

That tends to focus people's attention very quickly.

Some people tend not to like this, because it's their "team" that's suddenly become the focus of that attention because of their animalistic behaviour.

You need to face some realities.
This is a tragic conflict but let’s set it aside a second.
which government would you rather live under, Palestinian or Israeli (let’s not even say you are a woman or gay).
we can dance around it but we all know the real answer to that question

A wee test!
could you make a wee list of what the Palestinian leadership is guilty of against its own people, and maybe also a list of what they are guilty of against Israelis.
And my deal is, I’ll do the same other way around.
That will let us know whether it is you or me that has our heads buried in the sand.

Who is backing Palestinian leadership on this thread?

99% of posters are against civilians being killed - Palestinians and Israeli's, of which both leaderships are guilty of partaking in, so in my opinion both are a disgrace. Spare me if I don't want to play which gang of killers are the least bad.

However, one is seemingly allowed to commit what is most likely a genocide with impunity and is being funded by many of the largest countries in the west to continue to do it.

If you say this is unfair, it is antisemetic apparently.

It is a western nation whose leaders are wanted by the ICC for the crime of genocide, and countries are being strong armed into ignoring this. Does this bother you?

Hamas have said they'd accept a two state solution with the 67 borders. So it's not really genocidal is it?

I think we need to have answers to this question on a sticky.

answers

1. It's not because people hate jews. That seems to be what a lot of people are implying when they ask that question.

2. It's in the news a lot. Far more than other conflicts. Yes, we can debate why news organisations focus on one conflict rather than another (hint, it's because they care less when it's black/brown people) but Israel is in the news every day. And it's not just in Ireland. UK, US, Germany news all have regular reports on it.

3. Israel spent a lot of time and money promoting themselves and their side of the conflict.

That poster was discussing 'The holocaust' though, as in the Nazi's plan to exterminate the European Jews.

He wasn't talking about the wider killing that went on across the war (which was horrific too)

The Holocaust / the Shoah is in reference to Jews specifically.

There were other people in the death camps for sure, but the Jewish population sat somewhere between 85-90% of the total population.

To put it in perspective (I think I might have mentioned it a while ago here), my parents are Jehovah's Witnesses, who were also in the death camps.

I was in Auschwitz over the summer and was interested in seeing if they'd any mention of Jehovah's Witnesses (my parents were asking me about it too). Particularly as their religion makes such a big deal out of being in the camps.

They did, but then I looked up the number exterminated - 1,500 in total. That is a terrible amount of people, but to put it in perspective to show the sheer scale of the Jewish extermination, that's 0.025% of the Jewish deaths. Not even 1% (or in any way close to it). Stastically, it's negligable. On a human level, obviously, it's not.

So yes, all other groups of people who were exterminated in the camps should be remembered for sure, but the sheer number of Jewish people in the camps should never be downplayed through whataboutery. It's off the scale.

Didn't realize Jehovahs witnesses were targeted too, had never heard that. It's crazy the evil of that regime.

I do get your point, but I'm asking where did he challenge the Israeli nation, I read his speech and thats not how I took it, its more appropriate to say his words were more critical of the palestinian hostage takers.

The only part, that i saw where people looking for offence could find a glimmer, is where Michael D mentioned relatives searching for loved ones in the rubble of gaza. Is that it, is that what all this criticism of Michael D is all about ? Storm in a tea cup ! Unless you want to elaborate.

Thats not antisemetic as you have put it and its not totally out of place at the memorial either. There is a place at these events where we must state that learning from the past can help the future.

I would have though most holocaust survivors would agree with his sentiment. But like so many Israeli apologists, any negative words against Israel is antisemetic and the people saying them should be silenced.

The israel nation is far thicker skinned than you make out, they are committing genocide while hiding behing their shield of holocaust. Making a meal out of what Michael D said is just a deflection, "oh look over there, antisemetic, don't look at palestine"

People are criticising the excessive force by the IDF against civilians. WHAT on EARTH is your test supposed to say? That the excessive force is actually maybe ok? And to answer another whatabouting question you put out there: I would prefer to live in Israel. And that makes the mass slaughter... OK somehow?

It is possible to criticise more than one thing.

As usual this becomes an exercise in goal post moving and word twisting with you.

The extremely selective and biased viewpoint you've taken shows your lack of understanding of the situation as a whole. You're input is about inane 'point-scoring'.

If he's only talking about the deaths of Jewish people, then why say it was 90% Jewish people. If it's about the targeting and extermination of jewish people, it should be 100%.

And if it's just talking about the numbers killed in the camps, it's missing out on millions of Jews that were killed outside of the camps.

I just don't like figures being manipulated to downplay one aspect or ignore one group of victims. It doesn't need to be that way. The holocaust was horrible. we don't need to exaggerate to make a point.

The figures on the link I posted are terrible however you look at them.
https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/documenting-numbers-of-victims-of-the-holocaust-and-nazi-persecution

This is the crux of it for you - The Irish Government and the opportunity to take pot shots.

There's no such thing as an attempted genocide. It's either a genocide or it's not a genocide. The number of Jews murdered (as a percentage) does not come into play at all. By calling it an attempted genocide, one is claiming it's not a genocide. I find that term 'attempted genocide' extremely disturbing.

The Holocaust was a genocide, the only way you can use the word 'attempted' is if you're talking about the Nazis policy of total extermination of Jews. That policy ultimately failed, but it was still a genocide.