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Forming the next Irish Government - policies and personalities

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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,703 ✭✭✭✭dulpit


    What happens if you live in Newry but work in say Drogheda? Could end up paying a chunk of tax (in vat) and be an Irish citizen but not have a vote?

    If it was me for presidential elections I'd have it so that anyone who has previously had a dail vote retains their presidential vote even if they move. This would avoid the likes of 2nd generation irish Americans having a vote unless they've actually lived here. I'd also extend the franchise to everyone in the North.

    For Dail, is expand franchise to anyone living here, regardless of citizenship (so people who currently vote in locals only should be able to vote in Dail), and if introduce a number of seats to represent overseas irish (you would have had to have had a vote for dail before leaving Ireland). So it would be an extra constituency to represent the recently emigrated.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,341 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    And what percentage of motorists can actually afford this?

    Loads of motorists can, considering the average price of a new car sold in 2024 was over €41k. Over 100,000 new cars were sold last year.


    But you are moving the goal posts. If a motorist cannot afford a new car regardless, if its an EV or an ICE, then so be it. There is the 2nd hand market, which is again more and more EV's can be bought. One can pick up a 2nd hand leaf for as low as €2k these days. Grand for a runabout. And if it breaks down after a few years, get another very cheap EV.

    Again it's due to grants that these prices are as you say, not due to actual pricing, therefore its an incentive that helps the higher paid while punishing the less we'll off, including myself, that can't afford to make that jump.

    The grants for EV's are actually low enough. I think max of €3,500.

    But anyway, how is that 'punishing' someone who cant afford one? Just because I cant afford a Ferrari, am I being 'punished'?

    So my point from the start is still a valid one.

    Eh no its not. Its a populist rant you might hear down the pub, by the ignorant and un-informed. I have enlightened you a bit on the reality of the situation, but you seem dont want to change your mind.

     Apart from taxation and price gouging, the previous govt has achieved damn all in terms of actually providing anything tangible to prevent the burning of fossils Its a sort of, you go green or we will tax you, but we will burn the fossils and provide the expensive electricity that you're paying for to keep up an appearance of doing something. Is that acceptable in your eyes?

    This is just nonsense. The last government did many things, but alas, even if I explained it to you, you wouldn't believe me.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,341 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    One off housing is just a terrible thing from a policy point of view. At least the Greens stood to try and curtail it. No surpirse that SF would not want to go down that road. They need/want all the populist votes they can get.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,341 ✭✭✭✭markodaly




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,341 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    Well, electricity is much cleaner than oil for one. Did you ever have an oil boiler in the house? Wrecks the place after a while.

    But you would not install a HP unless your house is quite well insulated.

    You seem to not know much about these things?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,500 ✭✭✭howiya


    I don't share your concern on this particular referendum. Would have voted no.

    I do however have a concern about the referendum for the unified patent court which wasn't just a PfG aspiration. A date was set and it was then shelved because of the no votes in the March 2024 referenda.

    There is no mention of a referendum on this in the draft PfG. Is this dead in the water?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,570 ✭✭✭✭expectationlost


    don't think they shelved the patent court referendum because of those two votes, they've been long fingering it for years, they could have done it 10 years ago if they wanted to.

    Was someone going to same a EU patent court was woke or going steal their children?

    Its reported Harris just took away everything unnecessary https://www.irishtimes.com/politics/2024/04/13/harris-scraps-difficult-proposals-for-focused-approach-to-childcare-farms-and-business/

    Post edited by expectationlost on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 74,051 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Can you or @Pureza show where this is a stipulation?

    No spinning or interpreting, just show us where this is a requirement?

    The nation holds it's breath.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 74,051 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    I have no idea what SF's position is on this.

    I dare say they have bigger fish to fry, same as FF FG Lab SD's PBP etc etc etc.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,967 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    We have a separate thread on electoral systems, so probably better to discuss there, but I would disagree strongly with that.

    If you live in Newry, your are resident outside the State and should have no vote here. You have a vote in that jurisdiction. Why should some people have votes in multiple jurisdictions?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,500 ✭✭✭howiya


    Of course it could and should have been done much sooner. Although there was no real incentive to do so until the court actually established itself in 2023 but we are were we are.

    In January 2024, a date was set for the referendum. It was to be held on 7 June, the same day as the local and european elections.

    On 6 March the relevant bill for the holding of the referendum was making its way through the Oireachtas.

    On 8 March the two votes are held and defeated.

    You've linked an article referring to Harris scrapping difficult proposals. The referendum on the patent court is only seen as difficult in the context of the results of the March referenda. Harris only became Taoiseach as a result of the political upheaval in their aftermath. The responsible Minister for the referendum also changed during this reshuffle. The realpolitik is that Harris didn't want to risk a "no" vote on the same day as he was hoping to (and did) get people to vote for his party.

    As early as March 12 government sources were linking the patents referendum to the two defeated votes.

    https://www.rte.ie/news/politics/2024/0312/1437441-patent-referendum/

    https://www.ft.com/content/9cd68f25-5ae7-43d9-8d35-da7926458451

    https://www.thejournal.ie/patent-court-referendum-6352133-Apr2024/

    From the journal article

    It is understood the rationale behind the memo being brought to Cabinet next week is there are fears about putting it before a volatile electorate, in light of the the family and care referendums being voted down recently by the public. 

    The government believes it is an important referendum that will help business and must pass, but it is “risky” to run the referendum in the short-term. 

    I think it is quite clear that it was shelved due to the outcome of the two votes in March.

    I am more interested in whether it will be progressed though, and am keen to see it progressed. There is no mention of the UPC or a referendum in the draft PfG.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,358 ✭✭✭Bishop of hope


    I have no complaints in general with the last govt, just the incessant carbon taxation and price gouging of a policy that the govt hasn't managed to provide services for themselves. The Greens were a very major part of that.

    if you think expressing an opinion is uninformed and ignorant, it has more to do with your uninformed ignorance than mine I'm afraid. It's their uninformed attitude and ignorance on how people here, not only live, but have to live that has shown the Greens and uninformed and ignorant politicians what people think of their taxation and gouging policies.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,341 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    You expressed uninformed opinions about EV's that were not true.

    You still hold those opinions even after I have tried to enlighten you. Not my issue if you want to remain ignorant of the present day EV market.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,358 ✭✭✭Bishop of hope


    The last time I changed my car was 3 years ago. I have to admit, they are getting cheaper now, but at that time they weren't. The ID3 VW you mention is coming in at €31780 or so base. The golf base is coming in at €33660 or so base. There's no relief for buying a petrol or diesel car, but there's €3500 for buying the electric one which is why the electric one is cheaper as that's included in the price, so the state loses that.

    I couldn't afford a brand new car that I wanted anyway, either diesel or electric, nothing has changed for me since either. But that's my story, like many others in the same boat.

    Anyway, it's an aside from the topic of govt forming and what happened to the Greens that I was so delighted about this time around. And the fact still remains that I and a lot of other voters seemingly, have shown displeasure at what we perceived (be it ignorance or not) was a policy of higher taxation and price gouging to try and enforce something on us that the country isn't ready for. Mine and others ignorance has apparently lost the Greens 11 seats and any credibility in irish politics it seems.

    Post edited by Bishop of hope on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,300 ✭✭✭✭Red Silurian


    When I bought my house there was an oil boiler in it. To upgrade it to a heat pump would cost €15k, although there is a 6.5k grant to be fair. I also need a technical assessment done to ensure my house is suitable, a grant of €200 is available to that, which would make you wonder how much they cost

    However without spending money on insulation, there's not much point in any of it

    So again I ask… Where's the incentive?

    That's auful, question for you though, of the 1.8m homes in our fine country how many of them are one-off housing? In fairness we have a housing crisis so I'm assuming the planning authorities are taking that into account



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,341 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    The incentives are a warm house, year-round with clean electricity.
    But you need a well-insulated house first, and there are a lot of grants available for that.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,341 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    €31780 < €33660
    Its a fact that the VW ID3 is cheaper than the VW Gold. Base trim for both. Not sure what your point is.

    I couldn't afford a brand new car that I wanted anyway, either diesel or electric, nothing has changed for me since either. But that's my story, like many others in the same boat.

    So, the fact you cant afford any new car is a moot point at this stage.

    (be it ignorance or not) was a policy of higher taxation and price gouging to try and enforce something on us that the country isn't ready for. Mine and others ignorance has apparently lost the Greens 11 seats and any credibility in irish politics it seems.

    The Greens were the mudguard of this election. But what you will notice, the likes of the Healy Raes are going to continue the same policies. e.g. Carbon Taxes, Green Targets, Emissions..etc.. What does that tell you?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,642 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    It tells me that the EU are going to have to significantly pare back its own green agenda, in order to not be the most uncompetitive block in World commerce.

    And so the lofty government targets here will just melt away.

    In any case, when it comes to the spectre of these fines, so many countries - if not all - in the EU will be in exactly the same boat, so those self-imposed sanctions simply aren't going to happen



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,570 ✭✭✭✭expectationlost


    I grant you all that but I still think the problem with the patent court referendum is not the previous 2 referendums, its the patent court referendum, its boring, they could do it along side the presidential election, maybe just havnt agreed it yet.

    Post edited by expectationlost on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,419 ✭✭✭✭hotmail.com


    One thing is for sure, Roderic O'Gorman won't be asked to lead any future referendum.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,300 ✭✭✭✭Red Silurian


    The grants are pitiful. We're mid-terraced with an extension out the back, got our walls pumped last summer but because it's technically only 1.5 walls we needed done the grant was a big fat zero

    Admittedly the house is much warmer and the tank of oil is noticeably higher than it was this time last year so I don't regret doing it. It actually gives me what you refer above

    Again financially speaking aren't heat pumps much more expensive on electricity than oil or gas to heat the house?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,300 ✭✭✭✭Red Silurian


    Agreed that if the EU targets are missed by most or all member states they are unlikely to follow through on the fines, or at the very least they will significantly reduce them.

    It's mad to think that until recently we had a party who call themselves 'the Greens' in power and the country is going to miss what would have been seen as fairly simple targets back when they came to power. Not sure we should call them the mudguard of the last government. Mudguards are effective and useful!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,358 ✭✭✭Bishop of hope


    My point is what it was all along, one is loaded with a very high rate of vrt, while the other gets a vrt rebate of at least €3500 to make it affordable in a like for like situation.

    So basically tax and price gouging.

    And I forgot to add last night, I've 22 acres of forestry, my bit for the environment, mature enough to harvest this year. I'll have my new car in 2026.

    Post edited by Bishop of hope on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,886 ✭✭✭Caquas


    Eoin Daly, a law lecturer in the University of Galway, questions the constitutionality of "Super-Junior Ministers" in today's IT.

    He highlights two objections to Ministers of State participating in Cabinet - collective responsibility and confidentiality. There are reasonable answers to both objections and, in practice, no difficulties have been caused on these grounds in the thirty years since Super-Juniors were invented. I doubt if any court challenge could succeed on those grounds.

    However, he misses a fundamental objection which is raised in a letter to the IT today. Government Ministers are appointed by the President on the nomination of the Taoiseach with the previous approval of the Dáil. There is no such requirement for Ministers of State who are appointed by the Government on the nomination of the Taoiseach (and removed in like manner).

    Danger lurks here - the kind that Supreme Court is vigilant against. The Taoiseach could include in the Cabinet any member of the Oireachtas who would not win Dáil approval, even say Michael Lowry or some of his own Seanad nominees. The Opposition could then argue that Lowry had circumvented the Constitutional process and was now running the show at Cabinet, even if he didn't have a vote there. I don't believe this will happen in the current Dáil but the Courts will consider the legal principles, not the likely political scenarios.

    https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/letters/2025/01/21/letters-to-the-editor-january-21st-on-an-expanding-government-and-the-future-of-protestant-schools/

    https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/2025/01/21/role-of-super-junior-ministers-may-be-politically-convenient-but-it-is-constitutionally-dubious/



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,967 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    It is interesting to look around Europe at some of the numbers. From a quick Wiki search I found the following:

    19 in Malta

    15 in Latvia

    25 in Denmark

    19 in Finland

    24 in Sweden

    By those numbers, it looks at first glance that we are short in terms of Ministers and it might be time to revisit the Constitution in that regard.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 588 ✭✭✭harryharry25


    Yes more Ministers and Super Junior Ministers is exactly what we need 🥱🥱

    Considering when anything goes wrong in a department, it's nothing got to do with the Minister but when things go well the Minister is the man/woman who made it happen. It's a handy few pound for no accountability plus a few foreign holidays a year on the tax payer added in



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 74,051 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    The new CC making a right mess of the Speaking Rights issue.
    Surely if your legal advice was competent and comprehensive you would be able to rule out any other legal challenge to it.

    Seems not, after a meeting with the Business committee she has to review the contrary legal advice obtained by the opposition. Her decision based on legal advice and precedence (just because something has precedence doesn't make it right) has now been rowed back on and is only a temporary measure.
    A bit of a shambles and a self inflicted bad start for the coalition.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,886 ✭✭✭Caquas


    A case could be made for enlarging the Cabinet to, say, 20 on the grounds that Government today is more complex, wields far more power over people's lives and spends vastly more.

    In 1938, the welfare state was in its infancy while health and education were largely in the hands of the Churches. In consequence, government expenditure has ballooned -from about €2.55 Billion in 1938 (in today's inflation-adjusted money) to €120 Billion in the 2025 Budget.

    The danger with a larger Cabinet is that real decision-making would shift to an inner group and, in reality, that is happening with the Monday evening coalition leaders meeting to agree the outcome of Cabinet the following day. I expect these meetings will continue but with an Independent Junior Minister instead of Eamon Ryan.

    Politicians have suddenly lost their appetite for referendums. They enjoyed the referendums on Marriage Equality and Repeal the 8th. but last year's debacle has soured them on the whole idea. And "More Mercs for Us!" is not a winning slogan 😜



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,967 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    There is a discussion to be had on the issue. There are questions around effective size of cabinet, with the problems you mention of decisions made elsewhere becoming a vital point, but there are also discussions around span of control for Ministers, and the workload of that.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,967 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    https://www.rte.ie/news/2025/0121/1491941-opposition-technical-group-politics/

    I see Padraic MacLochlainn is at it again, he seems to have taken over from Pearse as the loudest empty vessel.

    Does he not realise that Fianna Fail negotiated a detailed Confidence and Supply Arrangements for the 2016 government, before taking most of the opposition speaking rights in 2016?

    The real issue isn't that, it is that MLMD doesn't get to add her particular complaints to the Dail record tomorrow.



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