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Senior ministers concerned about effects of Occupied Territories Bill.

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 8,691 ✭✭✭Odhinn


    Because one side are taking land from people, in areas outside their internationally recognised borders, and have been doing so since 1967. Or so I'd imagine.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,116 ✭✭✭Miniegg


    Well I know (at a v high level) about the holocaust and the Jewish quest for a homeland, how they struggled to set up a state etc, and how there were parallels between their early state and ours, which over time both countries drifted apart.

    I don't know what Jewish people or Muslims believe in their books and I couldn't care less. I barely understand the book I'm supposed to believe in, and I wouldn't like anyone to tarnish me or my family and use bloodthirsty passages from the bible that no one cares about, or **** things other people from the west have done, as justification, as is so common here about Muslims.

    As for what side I'm on - what do you think I'm on - Hamas? Puh lease go f*CK yourself if you think that. I'm on the same side most of the people who think Ireland are doing the right thing are on - post to follow if I can find it...

    Mod - warned for being uncivil

    Post edited by Leg End Reject on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,116 ✭✭✭Miniegg


    Above.

    Any post I've made is consistent with this position, yet all I see is eejits making up a point of view people don't have and expecting them to argue on it



  • Site Banned Posts: 12,922 ✭✭✭✭suvigirl


    As for what side I'm on - what do you think I'm on - Hamas? Puh lease go f*CK yourself if you think that. I'm on the same side most of the people who think Ireland are doing the right thing are on - post to follow if I can find it...

    No need for personal abuse, I'm merely wondering why you think one side good guys, the other bad guys.

    Early Israel had nothing in common with Ireland, in the same way Palestinians have nothing in common with Ireland. It's long been a Republican trope in this country to compare us and Palestinians, Israel are compared to the Brits. It's not at all alike. And the whole situation is not simple either.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31,682 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    Well, that explains a lot. You know next to nothing about the history of the area, the history of Hamas, and the geopolitics that is going on.

    You might well genuinely believe that you are not on the side of Hamas, but the words you post speak for themselves.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 55,060 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    Ah dem Muslims again Blanch. Why don't you just come out and say it?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 55,060 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    Israel are the land stealers just like the British were. Surely you know that. The Irish have never stolen land and as far as i know neither have the Palestinians. I think it's more to do with them being Muslims though.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31,682 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    The old one-eyed view of history rears itself again. Irish good and British bad.

    Forgetting that the Irish were renowned slavers, raiding the Welsh coast for centuries, and that the British only turned their eyes to Ireland to deal with that uncivilised menace. That is a different view of a part of the history, there is always more than one story, more than one truth when it comes to history.

    Similar with your view of Israel bad, Palestine good, even though the Palestinians elected the terrorists of Hamas to be their government and acquiesce in the oppression of women.

    Maybe you know all that, and your post was being sarcastic. Maybe you are one of those who think that the history of the Middle East began in 1967 and have never wondered who kicked the Israelis off their land in the first place centuries earlier. Maybe you have swallowed the Irish victimhood mentality in its entirety. Whatever it is, your desire to reduce a complicated situation down to a simple goodies and baddies comparison doesn't work.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 636 ✭✭✭harryharry25


    Yes it's very clear Blanch has a clear hatred for Muslims (non white people in general I'd say)

    Mod Edit: Warned for uncivil posting and personal abuse



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 55,060 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    None of the above. It's the Genociding.

    What about you and the Muslims?



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  • Site Banned Posts: 12,922 ✭✭✭✭suvigirl


    What is to do with them being Muslims? Wanna explain that to me cos I don't understand. I couldn't care less what religion anyone is



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,198 ✭✭✭✭volchitsa


    The Irish have never stolen land and as far as i know neither have the Palestinians


    As far as you know. Hmm. How do you think languages like Syriac or Tamazight (Berber) became oppressed minority languages, while Arabic - the language of the Arabian Peninsula, not Lebanon or Jordan at all - became the only accepted language across most of the ME and NA?

    Hint: colonisation and slavery were not limited to the evil “west”. Arabic was imposed on local populations by, eh, colonists.

    Moreover many of the Arabs living in Palestine in 1948 had migrated there in the late 19th and early 20th century - precisely because the arrival of large numbers of Jews led to economic development that the neighbouring countries did not experience.

    "If a woman cannot stand in a public space and say, without fear of consequences, that men cannot be women, then women have no rights at all." Helen Joyce



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,378 ✭✭✭deirdremf


    You seem to think, like some freeman of the land thinking,

    You've said that twice now. I have no idea what it means. As I understand it, the "freeman" trope applies to people who make up their own law. My comments are based on solid international law - ICJ, ICC. A person who, like you have done in your posts, thinks they have no standing is the very definition of a "freeman of the land".

    that just because some international organisation has decided that Israeli's occupation is illegal

    Again, this is back to your "freeman of the land" trope. Neither the ICC, the ICJ nor the UN are some international organisation. They are the highest expression of international cooperation and law - the very opposite to some hillbilly from Hicksville, USA screaming that "thuh law doesn't applah tuh me"as they are dragged off to the cells.

    that somehow imposes an obligation on Ireland to act unilaterally to ban goods from that territory

    Who has said that Ireland is OBLIGED to act unilaterally? Ireland here is ENTITLED to form a decision based on international law, and opinions from the world's highest courts and to act accordingly. I'd be very happy if we were obliged to Boycott, Divest and Sanction Israel for its appalling actions, but the world hasn't yet taken that step. Don't be surprised if it does in the future.

    . That is some logical leap without any basis in reality.

    When this is pointed out, you reduce it to a personal attack on me.

    I'm struggling to find a personal attack in what I wrote; but I am wondering if this is the newest Zionist trope, given that people actively ignore the previous antisemitic trope these days.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,378 ✭✭✭deirdremf


    I'd say in much the same way as Irish, Welsh, Scottish Gaelic, Breton, Cree, Cherokee, Navajo, Maori, Quecha, Aymara and many many more languages have become oppressed minority languages. Each case having its own specificities, of course.

    While English, French, Spanish, Portuguese have each become the only accepted language in rather large territories outside of their native homeland.

    Hint: Colonisation, slavery, and a great many Genocides were generally involved. A good place to start your reading on the matter would be Bartolomé de las Casas who lived in the late 15th and well into the 16th centuries - in other words, right at the beginning of the period of European colonial expansion.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31,682 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    Irish was spoken in Wales during the time that we colonized it during the fourth and fifth centuries. Does that mean that we were just unsuccessful oppressors rather than successful oppressors?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 55,060 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    Wasting your time. You might as well try to argue with the likes of Smotrich and Ben-Gvir Imagine backing genocide and war criminals??



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 8,691 ✭✭✭Odhinn


    "Moreover many of the Arabs living in Palestine in 1948 had migrated there in the late 19th and early 20th century - precisely because the arrival of large numbers of Jews led to economic development that the neighbouring countries did not experience."

    A kahanist "settler" myth. The notion that 'there was nothjng here before us' is a common colonial trope around the world.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 55,060 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    there are many closet Islamophobes on this thread imo.

    Mod edit: warning issued

    Post edited by Irish Aris on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31,682 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    The settlement of the area known as Palestine dates back to the Bronze Age.

    The Canaanites were probably the earliest settled civilisation, though that is uncertain. Israelite culture is derived from the Canaans. Furthermore, given the history of the two religions, it is certain that there were Jewish people living there before there were Muslims.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 8,691 ✭✭✭Odhinn




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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31,682 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    Not confusing the two at all.

    It has been postulated on here that the Israelites or the Jews (not sure which they are alluding to) are the interlopers in the region, and all blame attaches to them as landgrabbers since 1948. I am just pointing out that the history goes back long long before that and is way more complicated.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 59,240 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    and colonialism and exploration and power and coveting is why we’ve survived and thrived as a species. It’s a part of every humans DNA, not just some humans…



  • Site Banned Posts: 12,922 ✭✭✭✭suvigirl


    Are you insinuating I am? Because I'd like you to prove that. Or else apologise for making up lies about me.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 8,691 ✭✭✭Odhinn


    The blame lies with the arrogance of colonialism and imperialism.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31,682 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    There are no innocents in the Middle East. All have been imperialists or colonists.

    As I pointed out, we Irish are no innocents either in that regard, having colonised the Western coasts of Britain, indulging in slavery as opposed to genocide.



  • Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 7,597 Mod ✭✭✭✭Irish Aris


    Mod warning:

    Good evening everyone.

    The thread is titled "Senior ministers concerned about effects of Occupied Territories Bill". Yet there is very little (close to non-existent) discussion about the bill and its effects. If people want to continue discussing general points about the conflict, I will be more than happy to lock this thread and re-direct you all to the main thread about the conflict.

    Also, some of you are getting very close to ban territory. Couple of warnings/bans already issued, more to follow if you don't keep the discussion civil.

    Thank you.

    Upcoming gigs and events: The Pillowman, Rhiannon Giddens, New Purple Celebration, Foil Arms and Hog, Nova Twins, Tanita Tikaram, David Byrne



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,378 ✭✭✭deirdremf


    There is absolutely no need to postulate anything, very very few of the jews in Palestine can trace their family back to Palestine before the colonisation of the 19th century started.

    That's a fact, not a postulation or a theory or even a hypothesis.

    Tell me: there were jewish tribes in what is now Saudi Arabia and Yemen two thousand years ago; do you claim all of Saudi Arabia for Israeli territory as a result?

    And what about all those Yemeni jews in Israel - do they now have the right to return home to Yemen now and claim it as part of Israel too? I mean they actually have a genuine, as opposed to a wannabe, connection with the place.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,378 ✭✭✭deirdremf


    Comments drop like rain from a cloud, with nary a thought for their truthfulness. There are still posters claiming babies in ovens, beheaded babies and so on, 15 months on and still not a shred of truth nor evidence; while there is plenty of evidence of babies in incubators left behind to die.

    It really is amazing that these posters are permitted to spread their lies in this way. You would wonder about the fact checking of fake news.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,378 ✭✭✭deirdremf


    That's a 25-year-old article, and the science has improved much in the interim. Most of the people in charge in Israel don't look much like Palestinians. Although the jewish underlings, the Arabic jews, might well. We're unlikely to find out soon though as Israel strongly discourages people taking DNA tests.

    Then again we should never forget about Patrick driving the snakes out of Ireland.

    Untitled Image

    Historical reality, I swear.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,116 ✭✭✭Miniegg


    Me and you have something in common Blanche, and it's unbelievably evident.
    Neither have us have a clue about the middle east, Islam, Judaism - beyond a basic reading of articles on the internet, but at least I admit it.
    You couldn't sum me or my family or friends up by reading an article on the internet about the evils of Ireland or Christians, so why would I ever believe the same sh*te you spew about Muslims or Palestinians?
    I am straight up with my ignorance, whereas you and your buddies try to come across as geopolitical experts, label your prejudice as facts, and try to dehumanise people who are getting killed in their tens of thousands.

    On any normal day, have a conversation with somebody, and say "the indiscriminate mass murder of innocent civilians by an army is wrong", I'd wager anybody listening would agree, it wouldn't be worth saying would it?


    But add in two words to "the indiscriminate mass murder of innocent Muslim civilians by an Israeli army is wrong" and then we get a totally different set of rules and the endless excuses materialize out of thin air.

    Not one genocide carried out throughout human history has been justified, so why is this?
    Those leading and carrying out this need to be prosecuted in international court for the good of mankind, and harshest pressure put on from all countries (as Ireland is trying to do).



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