Hamas strike on Israel - mod warning in OP updated 19/10/23

Terrorism convictions you say?

You seem to forget that here in Ireland we know a bit about Terrorism offences.

Michael Collins was a terrorist. De Valera was a Terrorist. So were many other Irish politicians of their generation.

Mandela was a terrorist. Ben Bella was a terrorist. Kenyatta was a terrorist.

Hundreds if not thousands of politicians over the past 100 years have been terrorists. The word when used by an oppressive state lacks meaning. The word when used by Israel is absolutely meaningless, as the main terrorists there are the people applying the law: the people occupying Palestine. The Yahoo, BenWeird, Smot-I'm-rich. And so on all the way back to Ben Gurrier.

Israel have substantially lowered the bar for a nations conduct in armed conflict: annihilation of civilian property, destruction of hospitals, schools, creches, IO infrastructure, blocking humanitarian aid, murder of aid workers, enforced starvation, rape, child murder, illegal detentions, degrading treatment of detainees, torture. There were riots for the right to rape detainees, doctors raped to death while in detention. Is an absolute horror show

I've said it many times over the years to much scoffing and ridicule by other boards users : Israel are desperate for control of the Suez canal. They are purposefully doing the most repulsive things to bait the likes of Egypt and Iran into a larger conflict. It is agony for the pro war hard-liner's in the Israeli government that Egypt are not intervening militarily, or even taking in refugees.

If Egypt took refugees at the border, Israel could claim they are housing hamas and would fire into their territory, directly engaging Egypt. Egypt's apathy at the moment is really getting under the skin of the Israelis.

Just like there has been no answer as to why Netanyahu and Gallant don't simply pop over to The Hague and prove their innocence.

After all, the ICC case is purely political and there is absolutely no evidence of any crimes being committed.

Netanyahu is under pressure from the far right members of the Govt. who are threatening to veto the ceasefire package unless the IDF resumes the war in Gaza after stage 1. War Criminal #1 is simply buying time - so hey, why not pin it on Hamas?

Oh, and also note that even whilst a ceasefire is imminent, War Criminal #1 is already confirming they will return to attack Gaza after Stage 2.

The disingenuity of the Israeli position is clear.

Haaretz:

Earlier on Thursday, PM Netanyahu said Hamas has backtracked on agreements reached during negotiations, creating a "last-minute crisis," and that a cabinet meeting to approve the agreement will not be held until the matter is resolved. Hamas official Sami Abu Zuhri denied the "baseless" claim, telling the Qatari outlet Al-Araby Al-Jadeed the organization "is committed to the deal agreed upon with the mediators," and requesting that President-elect Trump "force [Israel] to continue with the agreement."

The far-right Religious Zionism party said it would support the cease-fire deal on the condition that the IDF resumes the war in Gaza once its first stage has concluded. Netanyahu again met with the party's chairman, Finance Minister Bezalel Smotrich, promising that the IDF would return to attack Gaza, but only long after the implementation of the second stage of the deal.

I think it's worth reading kits recent article to bring to the fore why Palestinians fought back against Israel.

The “power” they felt serving in Israel’s genocidal military was “intoxicating”. One boastfully described how he had “no problem” brutalising and murdering women, citing how he’d kicked a Palestinian female so hard bones in her groin “broke”, and “she can't have children today”:

It's a horrific read but puts recent events in context.

Good question. What do you think?

You'll provide links to the RZ statement no doubt. !!

Like I said - it's a good question.
I've made my position clear from day 1. All innocent civilians in this are victims - whether they are dead or alive. That's Palestinians, Israelis and all the hostages. And that's both victims of violence but also victims of terrorists - the Israeli government and Hamas. Medics, journalists and nuns are victims, as are sheep. There are also many Israelis killed by Israelis as previously posted.

The IDF and Hamas should simply have been shipped to a remote desert and given the opportunity to knock 7 colours out of each other.

As for benefactors - the Israeli far right have been lining up their settler mates for months. Presumably arms manufacturers are benefactors too.

So - who do you think are benefactors and victims?

I think you've covered it pretty well.

I'd add however

The only benefactors are those that sell arms and technology and not just to these states but in general.

Neither area are going to benefit from this. Tens of thousands killed and unfortunately some of the images and experiences had by people in Gaza and Israel will invariably lead to people making poor decision of how to react to all of this in future leading to more bloodshed no doubt. It's a circle of **** for all involved but the arms companies and probably some construction companies for the next few years will be raking it in.

All countries in the region will continue to stockpile and enhance their weapons arsenals. And when you have those stockpiles you will want to use them.

I didn't refer to Religious Zionism at all - that's a quote from Haaretz - Israel's oldest newspaper. They have undoubtedly quoted RZ correctly.

You'll provide links to the RZ statement no doubt. !!

Feel free to google the link to the RZ statement if you wish to see it. Or you can look up Haaretz, the article will be there. Though much of their material is paywalled.

We need to get to the 2 state solution as soon as possible. Gaza needs to be an autonomous state that is able to control it's own destiny and especially it's economy. Only then will the cycle of violence end. If Israel remains an occupying power and lets Gaza rebuild only under the rules set out by the Blockade, we will again see people veer to extremism whether it be Hamas or other terrorist groups. The blockade destroyed the economy almost immediately and created extreme levels of unemployment. If they are forced to stay in the open air prison that was Gaza from 2007-2023, the anger will rise again. If Palestinians get to some level of economic prosperity and freedom, we may finally see the two states exist together in peace. After what Israel has done, this is very aspirational.

But what we do know is there is a convicted Israeli Terrorist 

Ben Gvir might be a peice of work, but he isn't a convicted terrorist. Check the actual ruling in that case.

This ignores the land grabs since 1948 and that European Jews were not the majority in the area at the time. However, I do agree that Israel exists now and is going nowhere. The best hope for any peace settlement is if both Hamas and The Israeli right are gone , what unites them is ironically that neither wants peace with the other. You suggested this was a weird take, but even the Times of Israel admits Bibi enabled Hamas. There was also an article I linked to sometime ago which has senior Likud and IDF officials admitting to assisting Hamas over the years because it best served their interests. Indeed Yitzshak Shamir, the founder of Likud, was warned by his advisors not to assist the founder of Hamas in the 80s, but he ignored the advice because he wanted to weaken the PA who were popular and progressive. His rationale was that it was the best way to forestall a two state solution. Shamir and Bibi hated each other, but Bibi has adopted similar tactics to Shamir until it blew up in his face. Unfortunately I think he will return to war once the hostages are released, because he likely knows the demand for a public inquiry into October 7th will become too great to ignore. In the event of such an inquiry his reputation as "Mr Security" will be demolished

What's the minimum amount Gaza needs? I believe it's 300 a day but that's from memory so I'm not sure.