Energy infrastructure

silvertimelinings · 11-01-2025 11:38AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123043702#Comment_123043702

You are being dishonestly selective in how you counter my observations. The electricity grid is pushed to its limits and adding more demand through increased use of heat pumps which require electricity and EVs which require electricity will bring it to its breaking point.

Gas and Oil central heating do not put strain on the Electricity Grid at times when the Grid is stretched to its limit

ICE cars do not put strain on the Electricity Grid.

A word to the wise; be careful not to be led down the garden path. Green Ideologues don't care if the quality of life suffers for the public in pursuit of their dreams.

Elsewhere on boards.ie in recent days one can read about those who are receiving practically zero from their solar panels due to fog and snow and generally poor solar light conditions.

Elsewhere on boards.ie on the heatpump running costs thread in recent days one can read about those households with heat pumps consuming 24 or 25 kwh of electricity per day.

Those who are observing higher running costs on their heat pumps or no return from their solar installations or higher electricity consumption on their EVs can probably well afford to absorb the extra costs but the poorer in Irish society are being dragged to the higher costs of a renewable based electricity grid too and for them it will simply be a case of having to cut their coat according to their cloth.

KrisW1001 is now saying in the post preceding this that battery storage is recommended for those running a heat pump. A 20kWh even a 10kw battery is very expensive.

The magic tree of night rate can only do so much. It is going to be expected to top up BESS systems and datacentres never sleep. Do not set your hopes on low unit costs as there will be competition for night time electricity from private battery storage, heat pumps(which are recommend not to be switched off), BESS, EV charging, night time load shifting where consumers schedule tasks at night instead of the day, etc… The troughs in electricity usage will not be as pronounced as they are now.

You can see the graphs from Eirgrid showing pitiful contribution from Wind Energy and how as ever Gas, Interconnector and even in recent days Coal have been digging the nation out of the hole it has been thrown in to by Green policies.

A good dose of honesty about the complexity of the problem would be seriously appreciated but don't expect such honesty from some of the most vocal on this thread.

riddlinrussell · 11-01-2025 11:44AM

In actual news, fairly significant ruling that could particularly have an impact on land based wind

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/high-court-rules-an-bord-pleanala-must-prioritise-climate-law-in-wind-farm-case-likely-to-affect-all-public-bodies/a294141249.html

In breif, Judge ruled that ABP need to reconsider the decision to refuse a wind farm because they didn't weight the climate legislation high enough, overly weighing visual impact.

Importantly the land wasn't zoned for wind in the CDP

silvertimelinings · 11-01-2025 11:55AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123043933#Comment_123043933

I was looking at planning maps at planning.ie and the county council(I guess) has put red blobs for planning restrictions on all the raised hills. Those raised hills are the sites with best wind resource. The ones I was looking at would not get planning for wind turbines anyhow as there are too many houses around.

Markcheese · 11-01-2025 04:20PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123043933#Comment_123043933

I don't know where I stand on this .. a county council ruling somewhere out in their cdp for say wind turbines, and then shooting down a wind development either because of not matching with their development plans , or just on visual basis, is to my mind stupid ...

But the courts telling bord pleanala that they need to weigh climate legislation is also stupid -

Planning should be given on the basis of planning permission, I don't think an bord pleanala is the place to consider gov environmental policies..

Its largely leading us down the route of our entire planning system being now in the hands of barristers and judges , and our legal system has many failings ( it's not a justice system)

Markcheese · 11-01-2025 04:31PM

I used to live near aghada power station , if, - 15 years ago , I and other locals took the view that new power development wasn't something we were ok with visually , would we have the right to threaten the power supply for county cork and beyond .. ?

Or there's a newish large solar farm between carrigtohil and midleton , it's fairly visible to the 10s of thousands of motorists on the n25 , and from the town of Midleton

I doubt many people even gave it a second glance , or know it's there , but if there'd been a major kerfuffle during its planning, along with a midleton says no campaign, should locals( broad term ,as opposed to immediate neighbours be able to block developments ..

bk · 11-01-2025 04:32PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123044658#Comment_123044658

Planning should be given on the basis of planning permission, I don't think an bord pleanala is the place to consider gov environmental policies..

Errr… That is the whole purpose of ABP, to consider planning applications with relation to government policies!

Markcheese · 11-01-2025 04:59PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123044688#Comment_123044688

Sorry - didn't make that very clear , the gov comes out with a policy - fine - but it's kind of abstract leaving it to an bord pleanala to be the setter of rules ,

I mean realistically from an emissions and green house gasses point of view , no development should take place anywhere - no house should built - there's over 100,000 empty and derelict housing units in the state ,most in major cities. no road should be built , no power station .. factory or office ,

If your not walking everywhere - it shouldn't be done

Or think of the apple data centre fiasco ,

Where planners were asked to consider the national grid , and electricity generation mix, which is probably not a skill set that they could be expected to have , ( eirgrid maybe ) , but then the courts took it on , and ran with it and ran with it. .

Markcheese · 11-01-2025 05:04PM

I suppose are we expecting our planning system to do too much -

In the case reported in the independent, I agree with the outcome , I just question how it got there ,

And if planning regs need to be changed to allow planning happen smoother then so be it ..

Wether it's , the NRA , or eirgrid , or the EPA ,or fisheries Ireland or who ever ,who have the remit to say yay or nay in a planning scenario,

KrisW1001 · 11-01-2025 09:35PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123043920#Comment_123043920

Same old song you used to sing before your name-change.

You assert that the electric grid is under pressure. Evidence to back up that assertion? Missing as usual.

No point continuing after that : just more what abouts and what ifs.

silvertimelinings · 11-01-2025 09:42PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123045661#Comment_123045661

So, you are saying it is "policy" to be so heavily dependent on unreliable imports just to keep the lights on.

I have no idea what you are wittering on about with regards to name changes.

silvertimelinings · 11-01-2025 10:34PM

Eirgrid were concerned in Autumn of 2021 that there would be lack of supply. The grid had a lucky escape due to mild weather.

"In October, in the Winter Outlook 2021/22, EirGrid published its expectation that the
electricity system would enter the Alert State at times of low wind and low interconnector
imports and that there was an elevated risk, compared to previous winters, of the system
entering the Emergency State due to insufficient generation being available to meet demand.
This implied that on average electricity consumers could be without supply for approximately
40 minutes, twice the duration of risk implied by meeting the mandated reliability standard.
This was emphasised to be a measure of the risk of that happening, rather than a forecast
that interruptions to supply would actually occur. In the event, there was fair winter weather,
a somewhat lower level of demand than anticipated, as well as a more favourable generation
performance."

pg 19 https://assets.gov.ie/276441/eb496e01-5c01-4594-af09-74342b4ac971.pdf

Birdnuts · 11-01-2025 10:41PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123044688#Comment_123044688

well in terms of windfarm planning ABP and the Government have been ignoring EU policies on peatlands and water quality etc. for years so lets see whats good for the goose is good for the gander…

Birdnuts · 11-01-2025 10:50PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123043933#Comment_123043933

Flawed judgement based on flawed legislation - it effectively ends any input by CC's(and thereby the public) into regional planning and also suggests that no energy intensive project should get planning in the future. So cheerio Data centres, Cement Plants, Roads etc.

bk · 13-01-2025 02:49PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123045867#Comment_123045867

Did you read this judgement! This gives priority to tackling Climate change over more local environmental issues like water quality and peatlands. They will be able to built wind farms almost everywhere now. I don't think you will like the outcome of this judgement!

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123045889#Comment_123045889

Data Centers will be fine. They just use electricity which is quickly being de-carbonised. New data center applications are likely to put more emphasis on greening their projects, including nearby wind farms, solar, batteries, etc.

Roads should largely be fine, partly because there just isn't that many to do. M20 should be fine takes to the Green Parties insistence on making the project more green with integrating active travel into it, etc. The other Motorway projects are relatively short sections to connect to nearby ports as part of EU TEN-T requirements, partly to make it easier to transport wind farm equipment into and out of the ports. The rest are relatively minor bypasses.

I would imagine new roads projects to include elements like active travel, EV charging, etc.

Of course it is great news for public transport projects, active travel projects, etc.

Agriculture would be the area that could be much more impacted, 40% of Ireland emissions come for the agriculture sector and it is far harder to decarbonise.

josip · 13-01-2025 03:11PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123051222#Comment_123051222

Is that High Court judgement likely to be appealed to the Supreme Court by ABP?

I assume that because it's between Statkraft and ABP, the oil-supported climate deniers won't be able to be vexatious in this case?

cnocbui · 13-01-2025 03:12PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123051222#Comment_123051222

This is not a green light to go putting renewables on SACs, so not 'anywhere' by a long shot.

This may well harm tourism and the economy, I have seen comments made on tripadvisor to avoid certain areas here they considered spoilt by windfarms.

scrabtom · 13-01-2025 03:49PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123051372#Comment_123051372

Ah for gods sake it's amazing the arguments some of ye manage to come with against renewables

KrisW1001 · 13-01-2025 04:26PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123051372#Comment_123051372

Well I’ve seen comments made on Tripadvisor that make me question the future of humanity… Seriously, we've all seen commentary online from people who don't like windfarms. That’s fine, although since it got picked up by the “culture war” idiots, things have been getting a bit tedious. Against that, I also know that there are hillwalkers who specifically choose to walk in areas where they will see them, and that the arrival of a wind-farm has created an up-tick in walkers. I suppose different people have different opinons.

I have to say that the biggest (local) bitchers about windfarms in the area I know of were, for the most part, people who moved from the city. They were also the people who, before they discovered the subject of wind turbines, used to complain about farmers daring to engage in farming in and around their rural idyll (the usual: smells, noise, tractors up and down the roads at odd times).

Special Areas of Conservation will remain protected; that's not what this ruling was referring to. This ruling is very clear about saying that ABP was wrong to give equal weight to one or two people’s desire for a view that doesn't include wind turbines versus our nation’s need to reduce CO2 emissions and become more energy independent.

You should actually be happy with this, as the sentiment very much applies to any proposal for nuclear power too. There’s far too much unfounded “feelings” masquerading as evidence in the nuclear debate, and this ruling is strongly against the idea that “my feelings are more important than the public good”. (Nuclear has other, currently insurmountable problems, around cost and delivery, but there's another thread for that)

bk · 13-01-2025 04:41PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123051748#Comment_123051748

Against that, I also know that there are hillwalkers who specifically choose to walk in areas where they will see them, and that the arrival of a wind-farm has created an up-tick in walkers. I suppose different people have different opinons.

That includes me. I do a LOT of hiking. It is actually pretty awesome to stand on a mountain top and look down on the valleys below and see many wind turbines. Pretty much all my hiking friends agree.

Though I do have to say I roll my eyes when I hear people say things like it spoils the nature. Having travelled and hiked all over Europe, I can say that Ireland while very pretty has by far one of the least natural countrysides. It is just a sea of farmland, very little biodiversity, feck all forests or woodlands, never mind native ones and god help you if you try and drink from a stream!

As an aside, I wasn't for a moment suggesting they will build wind farms on SAC's now. But the argument about wind turbines spoiling views etc. is out the window now. Very helpful for both new onshore ones, but also one major area of objection for offshore ones too.

eire4 · 13-01-2025 04:44PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123051594#Comment_123051594

I always shake my head at the whole spoiling the view arguments with wind farms. IMHO its mostly because they are new. There are power lines up all over the country but nobody says a word about spoiling the view because they have always been there (in our life) so in a sense we don't see them anymore whereas windfarms are a newer phenomenon on the Irish landscape.

Birdnuts · 13-01-2025 09:12PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123051222#Comment_123051222

I'm sure it excites Greenwash types like you shoe-horning industrial wind farms into every corner of Ireland with little regard for the environment or communities cos as we know ripping up peatlands and other habitats is sooo Planet friendly and will lead to better weather on the other side of the world🙄. I would also suggest you familiarize yourself with the EU NRT law that was voted threw last year which prioritized the restoration of 30% of priority habitats, with the focus on state land like BNM's landholding.

PS - Laughable too your comments about Date Centres, currently they have to have gas back up to even get planning!!

Birdnuts · 13-01-2025 09:14PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123051594#Comment_123051594

Really - would u stick a Windfarm on Croagh Patrick or inflict another Derrybrein Disaster on a local community??

Birdnuts · 13-01-2025 09:22PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123051748#Comment_123051748

Public good argument is hilarious - WEI comes out with that BS alot. The only people who benefit from the windfarm scam are foreign speculators like Statkraft and price gouging energy companies - while the rest of us pay threw the nose. Thats b4 you get to the damage they do sensitive habitats, landscapes etc.

Birdnuts · 13-01-2025 09:34PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123051748#Comment_123051748

Clearly you know FA about the issue- I know alot of these families personally and they have been living in North Mayo for generations . Plus they have seen the Butchery of the landscape further South around Bellcorick and the issues there locals are having with noise and water pollution caused by BNM's sprawling Owehinny Monstrosity

https://www.westernpeople.ie/news/locals-resist-efforts-to-turn-north-mayo-into-a-heavily-industrialised-wind-farm_arid-3891.html

KrisW1001 · 13-01-2025 10:49PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123052799#Comment_123052799

I spoke about the area I knew about. It's not North Mayo. So maybe, just maybe, there's different situations in different places.

But yeah, insulting me is a great way to try discuss something like a grownup.

gjim · 14-01-2025 10:57PM

But yeah, insulting me is a great way to try discuss something like a grownup.

Seems a common enough approach among the few anti-renewables/crypto-AGW deniers that post on this thread.

I've no idea what they think they'll achieve? The ones they insult end up even more opposed to their ideas. And to a lurker/observer, nothing inclines you toward sympathy for one side over the other than when one side is dishing out nearly all of the bluster and insults.

The end result is probably the exact opposite of what they seem to want to achieve. There was a somewhat "soft middle" of regular posters which has noticeably shifted away from the skeptics in the last year or two. At the same time, each interaction I have with any of them leaves me even more convinced than I ever was that the anti-renewables argument is completely bogus.

bk · 15-01-2025 09:06PM

The Programme for Government has been released and it has basically no significant changes, just continuing the previous governments policies, some highlights:

The Government is committed to achieving 80% of Ireland’s electricity generation from
renewable sources by 2030.

This Government will:
• Deliver 9GW of onshore wind, 8GW solar and at least 5GW of offshore wind by 2030.

Fast-Track Offshore Wind Development by prioritising the publication of Designated Maritime Area Plans (DMAPs) and ensure the relevant agencies are sufficiently resourced to accelerate these developments.

Ensure the managed development of solar energy and battery power through the development of national planning guidelines.

There is also an entire section on their support of Data Centers.

Markcheese · 15-01-2025 09:15PM

What's the population density of north mayo , ?

And of them how many live reasonably high up ? They are definitely visable , they're big , the huge blades move , and they're on top of hills ,

josip · 16-01-2025 12:27AM

No way theres going to be 5GW of OSW operational by end of 2030. 1-2 GW at best.

Jakey Rolling · 16-01-2025 01:40PM

So I'm signed up to ESBN Flex Events demand management trial. Today we have a "turn up" event - there is excess renewable generation between 10:00-12:00 and we are requested to use high power appliances at this time.

When I look at the Eirgrid dashboard, it is showing only 65% renewables inc 3GW wind and Interconnector small net import (exporting on Moyle, Importing on Greenlink). Anyone have an insight into why this would constitute an "excess renewables" event?

Energy infrastructure

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