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No Written Notice of Redundancy.. Payment in Lieu?

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,209 ✭✭✭ebbsy


    Whether its a big or small situation, the principle of having everything in writing etc does not change.

    The person that I was praising made suggestions that apply to all companies, big or small.

    And he is correct in his assumptions.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 477 ✭✭Ted222


    Not correct in all aspects.

    For example, the suggestion that the OP should have been given the opportunity to seek legal advice refers only to situations where an employee is being offered a supplementary payment in excess of the statutory minimum.

    The logic here is that an employee is being asked to waive his employment rights in exchange for the additional payment. The legal advice would be to ensure that the agreement is legitimate. Where a redundancy payment is limited to statutory, there’s no small print that needs to be checked.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 390 ✭✭head82


    Appreciate all the replies.. they've been informative, helpful and moreso encouraging!

    Well I received my redundancy cheque this morning and a hand written letter notifying me of employment termination for the purpose of social welfare application. And that's all I received! I had to request formal redundancy documentation which I expect to collect either later today or Monday.

    I knew straight away the amount on the cheque did not include the 8 weeks 'payment in lieu' of written notice but as I did not have a breakdown of the payment I thought it best not to say anything at the time. It looks like I'm going to have to pursue this further. Initially with my employer and if no satisfaction is forthcoming, then I'll have to go through the WRC which I was really hoping to avoid. Think it's safe to say at this point in time my employer knows he f***ed up and is trying to apply 'damage limitation' techniques.

    It's not as if it's a vast amount of money in the difference but the principle bothers me and would eat away at me if I didn't get it resolved.

    I'll update with any future developments.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,393 ✭✭✭✭Mellor


    I knew straight away the amount on the cheque did not include the 8 weeks 'payment in lieu' of written notice but as I did not have a breakdown of the payment I thought it best not to say anything at the time.

    How much was the check for? By that I mean, was there any time in lieu, or just the redundancy?
    What 'damage limitation' have they atempted. Surely damage limitation is simply 6/8 weeks pay on top of statutory redundancy.

    It's common for people to miscalculate severance pay. Double check your calculations.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 390 ✭✭head82


    The amount on the cheque was pretty much the same as I personally calculated for redundancy only.. no payment in lieu. Although I won't know for certain until I receive the breakdown but I'm fairly certain.

    By 'damage limitation' I mean a seemingly deliberate attempt to not disclose breakdown of payment unless requested. Probably not the most accurate term to use but witholding said info potentially benefits employer rather than employee.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,967 ✭✭✭JVince


    So you were very much aware of the redundancy for several months, but don't have anything specific in writing.

    How were you made aware of it?

    Whilst the WRC does very much side with the employee where obvious wrong has been done, it may see this differently as you have been aware of the issue for a substantial time and the simple question will be asked - did you not request any exact date.

    You've been there 15+ years and instead of sitting down and discussing it, you are looking at a WRC case - and the risk of publicity.

    The WRC (and ANY court) is a last resort after all other possible avenues are exhausted.

    Do yourself a favor and discuss it with your employer of 15+ years - they at least deserve that.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,393 ✭✭✭✭Mellor


    Surely it's pretty easy to calculate the weeks in the payment by dividing by 600 (or your weekly wage if <600).

    Did you also get a final payslip with your normal earnings for the final week/fortnight/month? Accrued holiday pay etc.

    It's really strange that you knew he was retiring and winding up the company, but this was never in writing. Like the above poster, I think being aware that the company is winding up for a substantial (month maybe years, etc) length of time will be pretty relevant to a claim.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 477 ✭✭Ted222


    The employer is in technical breach by not providing 8 weeks written notice. If the OP makes a complaint he will win.

    Whether the OP feels he should make a complaint in the circumstances is another matter and one only he can decide upon.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 390 ✭✭head82


    I was aware the business was for sale for a lengthy period of time but was not privy to any dealings. Nor should I expect to be. Redundancy was inevitably on the cards but the timescale and final notification was not relayed to me in any formal manner. I don't believe the onus is on me to request this information. That's strictly on my employer to inform me in accordance with employment regulations.

    I was made aware of my last day of employment on December 10 at 4pm while I'm putting my jacket on and walking out the door.. and this is practically verbatim.." Oh by the way, we're finishing up on the 28 December!"

    I do intend to discuss this with my employer but I hope you understand in light of such dismissive and arguably contemptuous behavior, I don't consider them deserving of any consideration.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 390 ✭✭head82


    Yep, the redundancy payment conforms with my calculations for time served but falls apart if I try to include 8 weeks payment in lieu. This is why I need to see how my employer/accountant calculated it in the breakdown. As previously mentioned, I've had to request formal redundancy documentation to see how it all pans out.

    I appreciate this may all sound a little bizzare but I can't see how my lack of knowledge of the internal workings of my employers business dealings should have any affect on any claim I may pursue through the WRC.



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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Was the business 'Sold' or did it closedown?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 390 ✭✭head82


    Business failed to sell as a 'going concern'. Property/unit was sold as leasehold.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,161 ✭✭✭mrslancaster



    Pretty dismal behaviour by the employer if they knew for months that the business was being sold or closing down. Just for info, in the case of a change of ownership of the company, there is a legal requirement on a new owner to transfer all the employees along with the business. The TUPE regulations apply to companies, charities, & non-profits and the transfer does not give an employer the right to dismiss.

    OP, was your employer a company or a sole proprietorship (unincorporated)? Has the business ceasing trading and all employees been made redundant? Has the company been sold?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,046 ✭✭✭✭the_amazing_raisin


    It's possible that you'll receive the pay in lieu separately, in my case it was processed through payroll after I'd finished up

    Again, your employer should be able to clarify this. It really sounds like they're figuring this out as they go, but it's on them to follow the process and they can hire consultants to do it for them

    "The internet never fails to misremember" - Sebastian Ruiz, aka Frost



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,046 ✭✭✭✭the_amazing_raisin


    To clarify the garden leave comment, I thought it may have been a situation where the OP was going to be put on garden leave now and their redundancy process would play out over the coming weeks

    This is quite common in the tech industry, as soon as employees are informed they're being terminated their access is usually cut off and they're on leave for the remainder of their time. I've had cases where we'd only know people got let go because their company email stopped working

    Luckily in Ireland there's an actual process so you generally have time to say goodbye, but in my case I was informed I was being made redundant and within 3 days my laptop was handed back and I was on leave for around 6 weeks before I finished

    Back to the OP, it sounds like this is definitely not the case and their employer has ceased trading instead

    "The internet never fails to misremember" - Sebastian Ruiz, aka Frost



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,554 ✭✭✭✭Mrs OBumble


    Incorrect.

    There are substantially greater requirements for "collective redundancy" situations, which kick in at 5+ redundancies out of 21-50 staff (and higher starting points for larger companies).

    Information on Citizens Information is necessarily general, and often incomplete, sometimes outdated.

    More useful info about redundancy situations is found here:

    https://enterprise.gov.ie/en/what-we-do/workplace-and-skills/redundancy-payments/

    By the time the OP takes a case to the WRC, I would image that the company here will have been wound down, and there will be literally no legal entity left that could make a payment, if one was ordered.

    Many posters here are giving advice from large /multi-naitonal perspectives, which don't translate very well to small companies that are shutting up shop because no one will buy them.

    The OP would be best served getting the soon-to-be-former-business-owner to agree to be a reference. Potentially they could refer the OP directly to others in the industry who may have jobs.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,393 ✭✭✭✭Mellor


    I knew what you were referring to. That is pay in lieu of notice. It’s quite common. It’s not gardening leave though, as you are free to start another job anytime. With gardening leave, a person resigning is paid to not work elsewhere, usually for an extended period.

    OP has said he was made aware months ago it was being wound up as owner was retiring.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,393 ✭✭✭✭Mellor


    Pay in lieu of notice wouldn’t be part of a redundancy payment. Redundancy payment is a tax free lump sum. Pay in lieu is normal pay, it’s taxed and will appear on your final payslip along with holidays, and final week(s) hours.

    Which was why I mentioned to check payslip.

    When did you find out the company was to be sold, wasn’t being sold etc. where any of those in writing?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,161 ✭✭✭mrslancaster


    Post edited by mrslancaster on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 390 ✭✭head82


    The business had been on the market for a couple of years in an attempt to sell it as a 'going concern'. Had it sold, redundancy would not have occurred as TUPE regulations would have applied. A buyer was eventually found for the premises but not the business. Planning application had to be sought for 'change of use' of premises. A 'site notice' was placed on the premises in mid July. It was the placing of this site notice when staff became aware that they were going to be out of a job sometime soon!

    Permission for 'change of use' was eventually granted mid November (after a few re-applications due to previous ones being invalid). It was around this time staff were verbally informed of the pending closure of the business. No final date given and nothing in writing. And as I mentioned in an earlier post, verbal notification given on the 10 Dec. regarding last day of business.. 28 Dec.

    I received my redundancy documentation yesterday.. it's a print out from an online redundancy calculator! The exact same one I had already done myself. Haven't been issued with a final payslip but was told it was available if required.

    Can anyone tell me what official redundancy documentation I should have received and if it's required for social welfare purposes? I'm a little concerned as all I've been given is a hand written letter.. which I had to request!



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 903 ✭✭✭JIdontknow


    Haven’t been issues with a final payslip but it’s available if required? They sound incompetent, you should be getting a final payslip to verify any dues have been paid (holidays, additional weeks of notice, etc). Are you owed any holiday pay / additional weeks? Does the company have a specific HR department / personnel or is it just picked up by the owners / managers etc? Who does the payroll etc?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 390 ✭✭head82


    No outstanding holiday pay due. All have been exhausted. As a small company there isn't any specific HR department. Payroll outsourced but even that's caused issues over the years. Not blaming them for any discprencies as I assume they're only operating on information provided by my employer.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,393 ✭✭✭✭Mellor


    The rundancy calculator is correct. This is the redundancy pay you are owed. Assume it was 41+ weeks.

    Notice pay is not redundancy, you need to check your final payslip for notice and holidays etc.

    But from the sounds of things, it won’t have been considered. The outsourced payroll is only there to manage payments. Not to check HR processes are followed.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 477 ✭✭Ted222


    As above, notice pay is salary as is administered through payroll as normal.

    Redundancy pay is treated separately, not least for tax purposes, and would never be lumped in with a salary payment.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 390 ✭✭head82


    Just dropping in to say I finally got this little matter resolved. Fairly painless process in the end without having to resort to any mention of the WRC, although I was fully expecting this was the path I would have to take. Still, it wouldn't have been resolved if I hadn't initiated discussions with my ex employer and I was hesitant to do so without having all my "ducks in a row".

    So thanks to all of ye who took the time out to offer advice. The drinks are on me!!



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