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Munster Team Talk Thread - Beirne After Reading

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Comments

  • #28202
    niallm77
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,567 ✭✭✭niallm77


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122994915#Comment_122994915

    And how will Munster signing NIQ props change the Ireland QF or less RWC team



  • #28203
    niallm77
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,567 ✭✭✭niallm77


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122994845#Comment_122994845

    How do Ireland benefit from An NIQ prop signing for munster?

    Have a look at the quantity of signings Munster made in the last 12-13 years across pretty much all positions and then ask why the number of Munster players on CC has dwindled .......



  • #28204
    aloooof
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,717 ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122995023#Comment_122995023

    It’d make Munster more competitive and they’d have a higher potential of going further in competitions, exposing the IQ players to gametime against better opposition.

    It’s been an obvious weakness and point of difference for Munster against the best opposition for years now.



  • #28205
    niallm77
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,567 ✭✭✭niallm77


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122995041#Comment_122995041

    But history has shown that when Munster had NIQ front rowers, a rake of boks/kiwi/aussies elsewhere in the pack and were more competitive it didn't lead to the IQ players being exposed to a higher level because if it did, where are those players now .....

    Maybe now, the IRFU want to see the players pathways deliver before they sanction signings......



  • #28206
    aloooof
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,717 ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122995045#Comment_122995045

    How does having IQ players, that aren’t remotely near Ireland selection benefit Ireland?



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  • #28207
    niallm77
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,567 ✭✭✭niallm77


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122995052#Comment_122995052

    How does having a raft of NIQs benefit Ireland?? Having a raft of NIQ signings in the past across the park has seen Munster not produce a single forward since 2012 who has been an Ireland regular.

    Not a single centre either in the past 20 years. Yet Munster have signed about 20 guys who are centre or who could play centre at a push in that time. Yes a few have been IQ (C Farrell, Frisch, T Farrell, Arnold) but there is clearly major issues behind the scenes which I reckon the IRFU want addressed now.

    Has the succession of boks, kiwis, aussies etc been used to paper over the cracks and whilst they are allowed, what happened behind the scenes to use the time these signings bought to improve things or was there an element of complacency that this would always be allowed and let's carry on as is.....



  • #28208
    aloooof
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,717 ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122995073#Comment_122995073

    We’ve never had “a raft” of NIQ’s that you’re painting here. Like, we just haven’t. “Succession of boks kiwis Aussies” is hyperbole.

    When’s the last time we had more than 3 NIQ players in the same squad? It must be more than decade at least. Probably far more?

    The development pathways, in the main, have improved. And we’ve been reasonably good at supplementing with IQ players.

    If there are “major issues behind the scenes” with regards prop, that goes for all provinces since the IRFU ban is across the board. Right?

    Centre is an issue, but equally you can point to SH at Leinster; there will always be certain positions like that.

    It’s perfectly reasonable for Munster fans to be annoyed at the lack for sanction for an NIQ prop when it’s been widely reported they’ve had many blocked.



  • #28209
    downthemiddle
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,661 ✭✭✭downthemiddle


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122995078#Comment_122995078

    I can see why you would forget some of these even existed.



  • #28210
    Jump_In_Jack
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,088 ✭✭✭Jump_In_Jack


    As a Munster fan, as infuriating as last night’s performance was, there are positives to carry forward.

    A stacked Leinster team scored two tries in either half and rarely looked like breaking down the Munster defence other than from 5 metres out.

    The second half was two tries to one and one of the Leinster tries should t have stood.

    Munster played by far the more intricate attacking rugby throughout. They backed their handling skills to beat the rush defence and it nearly worked a few times but for the final pass. Munster will evolve a bit from exposure to that.

    Individually, Niall Scannell stood up well, he’s having a good period lately.

    Coughlan was very good particularly dealing with a lot of messy ruck ball. I can see him overtaking Casey, he’s physically bigger and his pass is quite zippy and he looks to speed up the play quite well.

    Our wingers are very fit, I thought they were tasked with a lot of graft, carrying back from long kicks and looking to break them down and they showed they have the physical strength to carry and they have speed to take on any opportunities.

    The biggest disappointment was the attacking lineout failing to work in the first half. Beirne couldn’t hold onto the first one in their 22 in particular was bad, it stalled the momentum at the time.

    Had Munster scored early on, the couple of efforts getting over the try line but not grounding, or if the line-out had been successful there could have been a much different scoreline at half-time.

    An early lead would have frustrated their basic strategy to kick long and rush up in defence. When chasing the scoreboard it limits options to clear long and hold play out of our half.

    It was noteworthy that they kept Ahern as blind side flanker moving Coombes into second row, and didn’t really use Ahern (tallest player on the pitch) as a line-out target, Would suggest they see him as the long-term option there.

    If we can get one of Edogbo or Kleyn fit it would give us options at least, thought there was a deterioration in the scrum as the game went on, not completely all bad, but probably asking a lot of Wycherley or Coombes to stand in at tighthead lock against a powerful pack.



  • #28211
    aloooof
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,717 ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    Great, so this:

    When’s the last time we had more than 3 NIQ players in the same squad? It must be more than decade at least. Probably far more?

    Seems like 15 years ago? More?



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  • #28212
    niallm77
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,567 ✭✭✭niallm77


    Marshall, Kleyn, Taute, Chisholm, Bleyendaal, Du toit, Grobler, Cloete, Arno Botha, Deysel, mathewson all overlapped each other IIRC

    I remember OTB at one point discussed Munster fielding a 4-8 of South Africans at one stage (it included Kleyn and Stander IIRC) but they are South Africans at the end of the day. It was around the time the project player rules were changed from 3 to 5 years.

    I know one or two were project players etc.

    Add in Nankivell, Abrahams, Frisch, Snyman, De Allende, Fekitoa, Salanoa, Jenkins

    Then there is Haley, T Farrell, Kilgallon, C Farrell, Sean OBrien, Beirne, Carbery, Jager, Gallagher, Loughman etc

    Yes IQ signings are a positive but the sheer quantity in the past 10 years suggests there is a monumental issue going back to the 2006-08 time, which is going to take a long time to reverse

    What we are seeing now, is a direct result of the above. That's reality.



  • #28213
    Podge_irl
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 29,774 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    A competitive Munster team with foreign props is better than a fundamentally flawed Munster team with IQ front row who will never in a million years see the inside of an Irish camp. They are as functionally useless to Ireland as any Bok.

    Now a competitive Munster with IQ props is the best bet but we have to live in reality and that option is not available today.



  • #28214
    Podge_irl
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 29,774 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    The "final pass" had been an issue pretty much the whole last two months though. I agree they're finding the space but the amount of long forward passes/touch passes to the wing is infuriating.



  • #28215
    mahoney_j
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,700 ✭✭✭✭mahoney_j


    last night was disappointing but so has been season so far …we’ve a poor defence ,poor lineout poor attack ….yes we’ve a chronic injury list but we just don’t have enough quality players ….an abundance of average ones and players in twilight of there career

    Coaching ticket despite the clamour there getting are very poor …..and we’ve just dished them out new contracts …..getting embarrassing how far this once great province has regressed …..leinster won in a canter last night …..if there was more pressure they had more gears to kick on than we have



  • #28216
    FtD v2
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,126 ✭✭✭FtD v2


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122995101#Comment_122995101

    The 2018/19 season Munster had Jean Kleyn, Arno Botha, Chris Cloete, Alby Mathewson and Jaco Taute.

    2017/18: Rhys Marshall, Gerbrandt Grobler, Jean Kleyn, Chris Cloete, Tyler Bleyendaal, Jaco Taute

    2016/17: Thomas du Toit, Mark Chisholm, Jean Kleyn, Te Aihe Toma, Tyler Bleyendaal, Francis Saili, Jaco Taute.

    Etc etc.



  • #28217
    Former Former Former
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,597 ✭✭✭Former Former Former


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122995111#Comment_122995111

    this, squared.

    Firstly, no one really knows what IRFU have and have not blocked, it’s 99% speculation.

    But assuming there has been some sort of policy, it isn’t working. If NIQ props have been blocked for the benefit of the Ireland team, then we need to follow through on that logic and refuse extensions for sub-standard players who happen to be Irish.



  • #28218
    Clo-Clo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,088 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122994798#Comment_122994798

    Costello has already ruled himself out

    When JVG was in Munster it was all great, then as soon as he left the "contacts" came flooding out saying the team wasn't fit and it was great news for Munster to leae

    Rowntree came in and they had that lady who does podcast and others been invited into training sessions, she is working with Irish ladies now but also Quinny going on about how great it was, short and snappy training. Getting the team fitter and more like the Stueday sessions that leinster did under Lancaster.

    Now we are trying to claim Munster was "flogged in training"?

    Rowntree didn't make a shambles of the POM contract, by all reports he looked at POM as a head coach and said I could spend that money better elsewhere, POM doesn't play much for Munster and his injuries are building up. POM was also captain of Ireland and the IRFU seemed to come to the same position.

    In reality those types of conversation should be held by Munster management above Rowntree to stop any issues. But making a business decision is what he seemed to do.

    Would the S&C coaching team not get fired for injuries?

    In terms of "contacts" a media person who seems to be linked into a lot of rugby people reported the issue was around Muster players and picking which games they wanted to play. We also have reports on why Coombes doesn't get picked fo Ireland due to attitude problem. Now they are reports and "contacts" so should they be ignored and just blame the head coach?

    As I said Munster looked to have turned a corner in terms of the academy but need to sort out the coaching but also the province itself. Seems they go from one car crash to another and its the head coach who also gets the blame. Go back as far as Axle etc



  • #28219
    aloooof
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,717 ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122995108#Comment_122995108

    You’ve listed Nank, Fekitoa and De Allende. They replaced each other. They never played concurrently.

    By this logic, if we had kept DDA, it would’ve improved thing. Whereas the reality is it wouldn’t have made any material difference to the number of NIQ’s in the squad.



  • #28220
    aloooof
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,717 ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122995141#Comment_122995141

    Which conflates project player and NIQ.



  • #28221
    FtD v2
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,126 ✭✭✭FtD v2


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122995165#Comment_122995165

    Some guys like Kleyn & Bleyendaal were project players, but dunno if Cloete was, he seemed just like a guy who stuck around.

    In any event - that 2016/17 season you had du Toit, Chisholm, Toma, Saili & Taute, none of whom were project players.



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  • #28222
    exiledawaynothere
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 391 ✭✭exiledawaynothere


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122995108#Comment_122995108

    I don’t understand your logic. NIQ in Munster have never blocked player development. The problem is player development - the academy for many years did not function. Also Munster lost the finishing school that was club rugby.

    Munster know they need to address this and are addressing it, but what is the point of handicapping a whole squad including quality Irish players by putting them on the back foot?



  • #28223
    exiledawaynothere
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 391 ✭✭exiledawaynothere


    At the same time, it is possible that if Leinster reach a final this season, 5 of the starting team could be non-Irish. All 5 of whom would be ahead of capped Irish internationals.



  • #28224
    FtD v2
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,126 ✭✭✭FtD v2


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122995227#Comment_122995227

    FWIW, this is pretty much what I think on the issue too. The current squad are obviously hamstrung by the front row.

    Don’t agree with the no NIQ prop position at all.



  • #28225
    letowski
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,389 ✭✭✭letowski


    Disappointing result yesterday, but not unexpected really. I was thinking before the match that if they managed to get an LBP to go with the 5 points picked up in Belfast, it would have been a very good holiday period. Munster are probably going to slip outside the playoff places but at least have a winnnable run of league games after this.

    What I find really frustrating with the team atm is the forward play. The set piece was very poor yesterday, no maul, an ineffectual pick and drive game. I understand alot of the problems are personnel related but aspects such as the lineout operation should be at a much higher level given Munster have veteran players running it.

    Amidst everything that’s going on I don’t think the season is lost yet or anything. Munster dtill have a decent shot at making the playoffs in both competitions, and there is scope for the team to improve (as it has done in the spring the past two years). But we could really do with some players getting out of rehab. Even just squad players like Edwin Edogbo or Sean O’Brien would be a big help. It’s tough starting the likes of Rory Scannell and Fineen Whycherly, who are good lads and all, but they are not effective against good sides at this level.



  • #28226
    aloooof
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,717 ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122995208#Comment_122995208

    And how many of them were project players / medical jokers vs strict NIQ’s?



  • #28227
    Munsterbhoy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 299 ✭✭Munsterbhoy


    Walking to the game last night I saw a few of those ghastly half n half scarfs.I nearly got the gawks..



  • #28228
    niallm77
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,567 ✭✭✭niallm77


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122995227#Comment_122995227

    The problem is IMO, Munster have been indulged by the IRFU for quite a long time since the HC Winning teams and there has been a very high number of signings (NIQ, IQ, Project players).

    The handicapping a whole squad came from within by and large and by continuing to allow the problems to be solved by NIQ signings isn't solving the problem.



  • #28229
    exiledawaynothere
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 391 ✭✭exiledawaynothere


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122995461#Comment_122995461

    Long being indulged? Maybe the answer is to just let the three problem children loose and concentrate on team Leinster.

    Conveniently ignores the very positive value that Munster have made to professional rugby in Ireland - 6 out of the top ten most capped Irish players. The province that did more than anyone else to raise the profile of the European Rugby Cup, and the province that delivered the first ten AIL champions.

    I think it is a fair assumption that there is nothing that Munster supporters wants more than a successful team which is made up predominantly of players who were born in the province.



  • #28230
    mun1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,141 ✭✭✭mun1


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122995461#Comment_122995461

    Mod Edit

    Warning issued.

    Post edited by ShamoBuc on


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  • #28231
    niallm77
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,567 ✭✭✭niallm77


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122994644#Comment_122994644

    But who is going to develop in a few years time, and what happens when that doesn't happen..... Munster have been in this cycle for the last 15 years or more.

    Look at the centres since the HC winning teams for example...

    Halstead, Mafi, Tipoki, Warwick*, JDV, Chambers, tokula, laulala, Howard, bleyendaal*, Andrew Smith, Saili, taute, de allende, fekitoa, nankivell, frisch**, C Farrell**, S OBrien**, T Farrell**, Arnold**

    * primarily 10/15 but got played in centre at times IIRC

    ** IQ signings.

    In 16-18 years. 20+ signings. How many have they developed who has played for Ireland at centre?

    It's symbolic of a wider issue which will take some time to change and reap a return. The problem is how does it get managed in the mean time....

    Where does the line get drawn?



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