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No Written Notice of Redundancy.. Payment in Lieu?

  • 27-12-2024 06:45PM
    #1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 390 ✭✭


    Hi all! Hoping to receive some informed information here as any online results regarding this query have been a little vague (or at least vague to me!).

    I'm receiving a redundancy settlement tomorrow and have calculated what I'm due to expect. However, I was not issued with written notification although I've known for some time that this was on the cards and my employer verbally informed me two weeks ago of my final day of employment. My query is, in the absence of written notification, is my employer obliged to pay me for the period of lack of written notification despite me working upto the last day? In my case it amounts to eight weeks of pay (15+ years in same employment).

    Any and all advice welcome. Thanks!



«1

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 674 ✭✭✭Avatar in the Post


    if you have 15 years of service. You are entitled to 31 weeks statutory redundancy at a max of €600 per week. If the 8 weeks at a higher rate is more that may be better.

    You should get paid up to and including your notice period if not worked/paid.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,209 ✭✭✭ebbsy


    Verbals are of no use to you here.

    Everything should be noted down and communications delivered in writing, just in case you have to pursue a shortfall further.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,043 ✭✭✭✭the_amazing_raisin


    Yeah something sounds off here, the statutory redundancy is 2 weeks per year served capped at €600 per week.

    Your employer can pay additional money on top of this which is likely what you're referring to the 8 weeks but it still doesn't add up

    When I was made redundant I had to sign a compromise agreement with my employer. Basically the agreement said that it would settle all legal disputes between us in future and they would give me money to compensate me

    That agreement included my final date of work so would effectively work as notice of termination. I did receive written notices of being in danger of redundancy, individual consultation with HR and written communication that I was being made redundant before all this

    The notices don't have to be letters, a PDF attached to an email is sufficient. HR would also ask for acknowledgement from me to ensure I'd received and read the notices

    All told the process probably took 4 months until my employment ended. My employer decided to pay me in lieu of notice, this is possibly why they seem to be ending without notice in your case. You might actually be put on garden leave while your redundancy is being processed, you'll need to check this as you can't take on another job during this time

    You'll also want to send copies of all letters and emails concerning your redundancy to your personal email account

    You should also have been given an opportunity to seek legal advice, if your exercised this then your solicitor should have gone through the details with you

    "The internet never fails to misremember" - Sebastian Ruiz, aka Frost



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,209 ✭✭✭ebbsy




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 390 ✭✭head82


    Thank you for the response.

    The 8 weeks I'm referring to is the amount of written notification I was due to receive. I was only given 2 weeks verbal notification of termination date. I will have worked and been paid up till last day of employment. It's the lack of written notification that I was curious as to whether my employer was still liable for and if it should be added/included to my final settlement.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,573 ✭✭✭XsApollo


    they are leaving themselves open to you getting legal on them here.

    what notice is in your employment contract? With that length of service it could be 2 weeks to 2 months depending on your position, they either pay that in lieu or you work it. Or a mixture of both.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 390 ✭✭head82


    It's a fairly generic contract with no specific redundancy notification highlighted. Statutary redundancy states 8 weeks minimum written notification for the duration of period served.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,043 ✭✭✭✭the_amazing_raisin


    It sounds a lot like you're being put on garden leave for the remainder of your employment.

    This is fairly common, understandably employees might be a might unhappy about being made redundant and could generally make a nuisance of themselves around the workplace (yeah, I'll admit I wasn't doing much actual work towards the end either)

    The 8 weeks notice is the minimum notice period your employer can give you. They can however decide to pay out your notice period to release you earlier, however you need to agree to this. Personally I'd take the money and run since you won't be able to start another job while sitting out the notice period

    However they do need to give you written notice of termination. I'd suggest getting on to your HR department, they're usually quite happy to answer questions that facilitate getting rid of you easier 😤

    "The internet never fails to misremember" - Sebastian Ruiz, aka Frost



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,573 ✭✭✭XsApollo


    well that answers that, you either work the 2 months or they pay you in lieu.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 390 ✭✭head82


    My redundancy settlement is tomorrow. Last day of employment. I will have worked for the previous 2 months and been paid for them but was never issued with a written notice.. (or Email).. of termination date. Only a verbal notice 2 weeks ago. Hence, my query as if my employer was liable for 2 months pay due to lack of written notification.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,573 ✭✭✭XsApollo


    so you got verbal notification 2 weeks ago that your position was made redundant 2 months ago, is that what you mean?

    Your notice starts when you are given it.
    they can’t back date notice, otherwise there would be no point of giving notice.

    Whatever about verbal, written, email.
    if you only received notice 2 weeks ago then you have 6 weeks left since you are entitled to 2 months.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,573 ✭✭✭XsApollo


    also is everything else in order? If they can’t issue notice correctly then how are they doing everything else?

    Have they gone through the tax side of it with you? Your option in regards to your redundancy payment? Are you getting any ex-gratia payments?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 390 ✭✭head82


    I was made aware the business was closing a number of months ago (as a result of my employer retiring) but given no clarification date as to termination of employment until 2 weeks ago.

    I'm not expecting any ex-gratia payments. I'll be happy to just get what I'm entitled to on a statutary level!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 903 ✭✭✭JIdontknow


    But you’ve got no written statement stating your finish date etc? I am open to correction but a verbal finish date / agreement doesn’t sound legally standing, I was under the impression that you receive written communication of your finish date etc. so you got 2 weeks verbal notice and tomorrow that’s up and you’re finishing then? What if you’ve to give social welfare proof of end of employment to start your claim your JSA etc.?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 390 ✭✭head82


    I'm expecting all necessary documentation will be provided to me tomorrow. I did make a request for written notification of employment termination for the purpose of social welfare requirements. I was also of the impression that a verbal notification was not legally standing which is why I've been trying to find out if lack of written notice could result in employer having to compensate financially.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,554 ✭✭✭✭Mrs OBumble


    Great answer for a larger company situation.

    The requirements are different for smaller situations.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,851 ✭✭✭gameoverdude


    I don't understand. Isn't employment law, well employment law?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 272 ✭✭danny004


    Had a situation 2 years ago with a really reputable company where i was made redundant . I was entitled to 3 months notice but i was verbally told six months before hand of my finishing date . Anyway with two months to go HR realised they had mistakenly not given any written notice and because of corporate structures and job relocation's needed me off of their books by the original verbal date.

    They gave me what was called a pylon payment to cover one month which was unwritten notice and then gave me written notice for the other 2 months which essentially meant i got 3 months pay for two months work but finished on the date they wanted

    Essentially any good company can if they want ignore your notice period by just paying pylon payments but your official notice date only starts with the correct documentation which is a notice of redundancy , anything verbal is hearsay



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 477 ✭✭Ted222


    Your statutory redundancy entitlement is 31 weeks pay at a max of 600 per week.

    You are also entitled to eight weeks’ notice of the termination date. From your posts, it would seem that you only got two weeks’ verbal notice

    At the very least, you are entitled to six weeks payment in lieu of notice. You could additionally argue that it should be eight weeks as the requirement is to provide notice in writing.

    All of the above is the minimum statutory requirement. Anything less is a breach of employment law and you could make a complaint to the WRC.

    Very often an employer will offer a more favourable settlement package as part of a settlement agreement which normally requires you to waive any future entitlement you may otherwise have to take an action for breach of employment law.

    Don’t sign any such agreement unless the additional package is sufficiently attractive. You should also be given the opportunity to seek advice as to whether the agreement is legitimate.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 390 ✭✭head82


    "At the very least, you are entitled to six weeks payment in lieu of notice. You could additionally argue that it should be eight weeks as the requirement is to provide notice in writing.

    All of the above is the minimum statutory requirement. Anything less is a breach of employment law and you could make a complaint to the WRC."

    This is what I've been trying to confirm. I believe my employer is obliged to compensate me for lack of written notice but I can't find anything online to back up that belief. I'd prefer not to have to go down the WRC route but I also don't want to sacrifice 8 weeks deserved pay.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 903 ✭✭✭JIdontknow


    https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/employment/unemployment-and-redundancy/redundancy/redundancy-notice-periods/



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Written notice is required. It is highlighted in bold on the citizen information web site.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 390 ✭✭head82


    I see that. It's just that there's no mention of employer having to compensate in the absence of written notice. That's what concerns me. It may be implied but I'd prefer if it was clearly stated before I raise the issue.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,043 ✭✭✭✭the_amazing_raisin


    They are not different for a small company, the law applies equally.

    A small business owner can't turn around to the WRC and claim that the redundancy process was "too difficult" and just skipped a bunch of parts

    "The internet never fails to misremember" - Sebastian Ruiz, aka Frost



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,043 ✭✭✭✭the_amazing_raisin


    If they haven't given written notice then it basically doesn't count. They can give pay in lieu of notice, which means you could be given notice tomorrow and finish employment then but they have to pay you for the notice period

    It's possible they're already planning on doing this, you need to have an honest conversation with them and sort out the details. Doesn't need to be adversarial, just say you've some questions over exactly what the process is, the timeline and what settlement you're getting

    Honestly given your employer's business is being wound up it sounds like their head isn't in the game. However they should have a solicitor and accountant helping them dissolve the company who would likely handle the details like making any employees redundant

    I would also recommend getting legal advice, it usually costs around €500 for a few hours to look over all the documents. Obviously if it goes further to the WRC there'll be greater costs, but that's a separate issue

    "The internet never fails to misremember" - Sebastian Ruiz, aka Frost



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,393 ✭✭✭✭Mellor


    It doesn't at all sound like gardening leave. He is being made redundant. Gardening leave is something else entirely.

    He is not require to compensate you for lack of written noticed. He is required to give you notice in writing. He can pay you in lieu of notice. It's started on Citizens Information page. It's also stated in the Minimum Notice and Terms of Employment Act, 1973.

    You are entitled to 8 weeks notice and 31 weeks redundancy. I'd be expecting to be paid 6 weeks notice, you could push for 8 as it was not in writing. But as you've been aware for months it was coming, and acknowledged it was given verbally 2 weeks ago I think it's fair.

    FWIW, its strange that everyone was made aware months ago and the employer still missed the notice period by weeks. Is there any chance that you were sent notice by letter and didn't receive it. Perhaps it went to an old address they have on file?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 477 ✭✭Ted222


    It’s implied without being specific.

    It’s fairly black and white in your case. If the employer doesn’t give you 8 weeks written notice, he’s in breach. If he doesn’t agree to pay, your recourse is to submit a complaint to the WRC.

    If the company is being wound up, it may be difficult to make good on your complaint down the line so if can be resolved now that would be preferable.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    The law is the law. A former boss of mine tried that excuse, claiming it was the first time he had made a person redundant, small company and had no HR expertise. Cost the company over a 100k in the WRC.



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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    If it is not in writing, it did not happen. The WRC is very heavy weighted in favour of the employee.



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