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M21 - Limerick to Rathkeale/Foynes [Adare bypass under construction; remainder pending]

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,341 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    This project was first proposed in 2017, and went to ABP in 2021. The 2011 “Adare Bypass” was canned due to lack of money to build the M20, upon which it depended: Adare was originally going to be bypassed to the south, with traffic for Limerick joining M20 at a junction near Croom.

    Both N21 and N20 have since been completely redesigned since those days, and the M21 has come out of that process is a completely different thing. Actually, I just looked back at the start of this thread and it’s ironic to see that as early as the third post, someone put forward pretty much the current plan as an alternative to what was being planned back then.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,638 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    Sorry now but consultants were appointed to commence planning & design on this in early 2014 and it was submitted to ABP in December 2019.

    It got delayed for quite some time in 2017-19 due to revisions to the Foynes-Rathkeale section to dual it.

    The JRs on this were dropped in June 2023 and less than 18 months later the construction contracts were awarded. A remarkable pace of progress



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,341 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    I stand corrected. I didn’t think the Foynes link was part of the pre-2017 plan at all.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 12,751 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cookiemunster


    The initial plan was Foynes to Limerick, so an N69 upgrade. It was then decided to kill two birds with one stone and upgrade the N21 along with building the new road to Foynes. So if anything the Adare bypass is the bit that wasn't part of the original plan.

    Anyways, here's the official announcement of the contract signing. Works to start in January, but the timeline is very tight for making September 2027 deadline.

    https://www.limerick.ie/council/newsroom/news/works-to-commence-in-january-after-tender-awarded-for-adare-bypass



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,716 ✭✭✭veryangryman


    This thread title is (and has been for ages) really wrong. The N21 and M21 begins after Patrickswell, close to Adare. Doesnt touch Limerick unless we are talking about County Limerick



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  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 12,751 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cookiemunster


    No it's not wrong. The scheme is officially called Foynes to Limerick (including Adare Bypass).

    And Patrickswell is part of the Metropolitan District of Limerick. Therefore it's part of the City.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,340 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    The deadline is that the road "is required to be fully operational by June 2027". I don't think it's tight at all, it's a short stretch and these lads will fly through it.

    Post edited by Pete_Cavan on


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 12,751 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cookiemunster


    Structures can't be rushed. Two full GSJs and a 200m bridge over the Maigue are what will take the time.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,234 ✭✭✭✭breezy1985


    The Well is currently only 5 minutes drive from the edge of the unbroken built up city area and that probably won't even be true for much longer. This is definitely a motorway to the city.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,340 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    But there is plenty of time to build that. They have two and a half years, the M3 project involving the construction of a 50km motorway/dual carriageway, 11km of single carriageway, a further 24km of road widening/realignment, 6 GSJs and the Boyne bridge took three years.



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  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 12,751 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cookiemunster


    The length of the project is pretty much irrelevant to the timescale. The 12km M28 is also scheduled to take 3 years.

    Structures take time to build and they are what generally determine the timeline. In this case the officials have said that it's a very tight schedule to get this done on time. They know how long the structures will take to build and that's why they've been saying it will be tight.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,340 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    The length of the project will generally determine the number of structures involved so certainly is relevant. The structures in this case aren't overly complex. The Maigue bridge is mid-size and the enabling works mean it is fairly accessible from the beginning.

    The M28 will involve large scale works and connections with very heavily trafficked roads which will require delicate phasing and traffic management. It is also 75% longer than the M21 project. It being scheduled to take 3 years would suggest that 2.5 years for the M21 isn't onerous.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,638 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    This is a pretty simple offline motorway on greenfields on fairly flat land. There are some structures, the Maigue bridge and the GSJs, but there is nothing to suggest it can't be done in the 32 month timeframe involved.

    The Macroom bypass section of the N22 project had tarmac almost down on its route after 2.5 years and looking at the videos it was a complex build with 2 river bridges, several overbridges and complex earthworks. And the site was shut due to Covid-19 lockdowns.

    I'd be astonished if this wasn't open months ahead of the Ryder Cup.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,340 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    My prediction is that in early 2026 the project is well ahead of schedule and on course for late 2026 completion (possibly runs into 2027 if there are some unexpected difficulties along the way). The seamless tie-in with the existing motorway section of the N21 then gets included in the contract (not doing so would seriously undermine the road and cause issues for the Ryder Cup). Finishing the motorway to Rathkeale is likely too big to be included in the current contract and would have to be tendered separately.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 896 ✭✭✭MICKEYG


    "Seamless tie in with the existing motorway section of the N21 gets included...."

    Surely it is already included. The bypass cannot be considered complete if there is a roundabout type tie in.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,341 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    As far as I can tell from the tender notice, the area inside the pink outline is what is being built. That's a mainline length of about 7 km (Chainage +55k to +62k), and includes the two structures named in the tender.


    The Green line is the existing N21 dual carriageway.

    The Red line is the existing N21 single carriageway, 3.5 km. Just over half of this length is to be widened online.

    The blue box is this road bridge, over the existing N21 single carriageway:

    I think this is the reason why the tie-in work was left out of this project: first, the road is in a cutting here, so widening is more disruptive, and second, the bridge also needs to be widened to accommodate a Type 1 DC motorway. Works here could make traffic delays worse, and if the goal is to not grind the Adare road to a halt, then it makes sense to wait.

    However, once all the golf circus is gone, it wouldn’t be a problem to get going on at least some of this work.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 12,751 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cookiemunster


    Hopefully you are proven right.

    It's not. The contract runs from the Adare Junction to the Croagh Junction only.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,126 ✭✭✭Chris_5339762


    Yes and no! The European TEN-T funding requires good roads to ports, so the N69 qualified because of Foynes. The councils and the TII did a very un-Irish bit of common sense thinking and lumped the Adare bypass in by changing the way that Foynes is accessed to the N21.

    The Ryder Cup changed the sequencing of the project unfortunately.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,638 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    Drove past the site on the Limerick side recently and there’s Sorensen/JCL signage up everywhere, lots of lads and plant on site. I’ve no doubt they’ll hit the ground running in the New Year. Some of the earthworks for the Adare Link Road at the N21 interface are done and an access route to the mainline is open.

    Always nice to see boots on the ground after following a scheme from the beginning as we have here. Hopefully a nice easy ride for the contractors now and the trip through Adare becomes optional and pleasant.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,340 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    The works to the bridge could be done early, leaving an easy tie-in later. That would remove the risk relating to that.

    The current plan of having everyone (both those entering Adare for the Ryder Cup and those wanting to bypass the town) first merge into a single land and then use a roundabout is going to cause traffic delays.

    It is madness to create that situation unnecessarily, it may be forced upon them later but baking it in now is crazy. It is accepting as a given that that should be a fallback situation. If, as I suspect, the works progress quickly and they are on track for completion well before the RC, hopefully sense will prevail and they connect the two motorways.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,341 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    A 2 km single-carriageway link could be done easily from the Adare junction to the point where the new scheme leaves the existing road - basically, just built half the mainline eastward until it meets the existing N21. With that present, traffic for Adare Manor can be allowed to leave freely, but not join freely. Basically, the link would prioritise non-village traffic.

    The purpose of doing this work early is not to facilitate visitors to the Ryder Cup; it’s to prevent the presence of the Ryder Cup circus making it impossible for people at all points west of Adare to travel to and from Limerick for a week and a bit. The Garda traffic controls around this event will most likely mean that nearly all ticketholders will be coming by bus/coach - that’s not a huge strain on road capacity. But: private cars are also likely to be barred from the village except for residents, and it’s that restriction, plus the parking for those coaches, that would create havoc if there was no way around Adare.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,638 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    On your first point, that could certainly be done. But with 2.5 years to go, surely the full motorway grade road could be built. It’s a flat section of route, and just the L1424 bridge and the over bridge on the existing N21 to be done structures wise.

    I can foresee a situation in 2027 when instead of the general public celebrating the bypassing of Adare the focus instead will be on all the headscratching as to why two motorways are separated by 2km of single carriageway when there’s full planning permission in place to bridge that 2km gap.

    I can see the blame being put on Eamon Ryan for one final time.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,341 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    My feeling is that the rest of this project will be started before 2027, so that once the golf thing is over, the winning contractor on this part (very likely to be the on-site contractor) will just continue eastward toward Limerick. As it is, the new N69 Foynes road could certainly be built without inconveniencing anyone who wants to go see little white balls.

    N69 is a very different kind of built to M21, though, with a lot of earthworks needed and no grade-separated junctions, which is why I think there may be two tenders put out: the first to build the Type2 DC N69, and the second to finish the remaining bits of M21 (which is about 5 km at the western end of what’s being done now, and the 3.5 km to the east).

    I think the omission of this eastern section is from an abundance of caution - if there were to be an unforeseen delay during these works, then the road capacity along N21 would end up worse than in the do-nothing scenario. By confining the construction to greenfield sections, the worst outcome for a cock-up is that the road access to Adare is exactly the same as it is today.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 936 ✭✭✭lordleitrim


    If I understand correctly, every single vehicle coming off the M7 for the newly created M21 bypass of Adare will be greeted by a roundabout before they can either join the bypass or exit for Adare village? While I know this is a temporary measure prior to the full M21 tie in, isn't it likely we'll see several kms tailbacks queuing at the roundabout on particularly busy periods (Friday evenings etc) for the duration of this more than a year measure? It really does take the gloss off the development in the short term.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 12,751 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cookiemunster


    Trust me, you're not the first person to bring this up. Don't worry though, I've been assured (by other posters on here) that there will be no issues as that traffic won't have to enter the town……



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,341 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    The exact amount of road to be built, and how it will temporarily tie in to the existing N21, is not known. The tender documents only say “approximately 7 km of motorway”, it does not mention tie-ins with existing roads and there were no specific drawings provided. The entire motorway has planning permission, so what gets built is just a matter of agreeing time and costs with the contractor. It may be possible to provide a tie-in with the existing N21 for traffic that is not going to or from Adare itself.

    Most of the delays in Adare are caused by traffic for points west of Adare that is being forced through the village right now - once all of that through-traffic can divert onto the motorway (which can take far more traffic than the existing road can feed it) things will be a lot smoother than at present.

    As for the “gloss”… who cares? The current road is actually quite scenic, but I don’t think anyone will miss having to take it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 936 ✭✭✭lordleitrim


    I was referring to the gloss in terms of benefit of journey time saved for the next few years before the full M21/N69 project is completed...I'd imagine a lot of people travelling the N21 care about that....



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 90 ✭✭Pale Red


    Definitely time saved going east. If you are going further west than NCW, then much of the gains will be eaten into by a longer queue in NCW.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 12,751 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cookiemunster


    It is known. Unless the tie in with the M20 is built the road will be accessed by the new junctions with the current N21 at Adare and Croagh.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,341 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    Is that from a source, or are you talking about the most likely case? Obviously the contractors know, but I meant the public, like us. I’m not arguing with you, by the way, as I also think that is the most likely case, but the published request for tenders was unusually ambiguous about how much of the mainline is to be built. The wording doesn’t rule out a temporary, non dual-carriageway, link. It’s unlikely, though, and I do think that the planned junction will be fine westbound. Eastbound, it could back up a lot, but that’s going to happen until the final eastern motorway stretch is done.

    @lordleitrim - I don’t think anyone will complain. Consider this:

    The current route from existing N21 on the intended Adare junction to existing N21 on the intended Croagh junction is 9 km long, and Google reports this as having a travel time of 9 minutes… if you’re driving at 4:00am. Choose 18:00 on a Friday, and it says it could be up to 22 minutes. That shouldn’t be a surprise to anyone.

    The new way to get between those points will be 7 km long, with an estimated travel time of around 4 minutes under best conditions, or maybe 6 minutes if it gets really busy.

    Meanwhile, travel times along the old N21 will drop towards that 9 minute minimum value, as far less traffic will be using the route.

    2 km shorter, and up to three times faster should be enough while the rest of the project is done.

    If your argument is that they should have just started at M20 and done the on-line M21 build too, then I do tend to agree with you, but that golf tournament complicates the timing. Any major delay on that online section could cause the whole N21 corridor to jam solid during that week or two - and that is too much of a risk. It’s not the big event that causes the issues, but the street closures that will need to be made within Adare to prevent some of the spectators ignoring the requests of the Gardaí and organisers and trying to drive their cars right up as close to the first tee as they can.

    I’m fairly confident that the rest of this project will be lined up for construction to start as soon as the circus has folded up and fecked off.



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