General Irish politics discussion thread

Needed?

In some EU countries parties with such paltry support wouldn't make it into parliament at all.

In principle, they should have speaking (and other) rights that are equivalent to the rights of TDs who are members of parties. The "technical group" is a mechanism created to try to acheive this outcome.

Nobody is saying that every TD should have equal speaking rights; just that the basis on which speaking (and other) rights are allocated should not favour party TDs over non-party TDs.

The argumment here is not about benefit or about protecting or undermining the party system. The point is that party and non-party TDs have the same electoral mandate from the people, and the same constitutional function. "Rigging the system" so that party TDs can fulfil their mandates and perform their functions more effectively than non-party TDs is an attempt to benefit parties at the expense of voters, which is A Bad Thing.

As for undermining the party system, if the party system delivers benefits to the public then the public will vote for party TDs. If the party system needs to be shored up by riggind Oireachtas procedures to favour party TDs over non-party TDs, that indicates that the party system can't surive on its own merit. In which case, why shore it up?

I'm not saying that the current system is problematic. The technical groups are designed as a mechanism by which non-party TDs can get equitable treatment with party TDs. Others are objecting to the existence of the technical groups; I am defending them.

Party and non-party TDs are elected to the Oireachtas, which is the legislature, and it is their mandate as legislators of which I speak. Speaking rights are only a part of that; there's also membership of, and chairing of, Oireachtas committees, allocation of office space and other resources, research facilities, etc.

But no TD has a mandate to be in government, the executive branch of government. As regards government your only rights as a legislator are (a) to vote on who will be Taoiseach; to question government ministers and hold them to account; (c) to vote no confidence in the government; (b) to vote on the appropriation of the money that government needs.

The alternative to shoring up the party system by rigging the Oireachtas is not to shore up the party system by rigging the Oireachtas, but to accept the mandate of all TDs equally. It's a system that has worked pretty well up to now, by and large. Why change it?

(And a quibble; ouir electoral system doesn't favour non-party candidates. It favours voters, delivering them signficantly more power than Certain Others We Could Mention. If we have a high number of non-party TDs relative to other countries that is not because the system favours them but because the voters do. If the voters had a stronger preference for party TDs than they do then we would have fewer non-party TDs than we have.)

That wouldn't mean that our system was favouring non-party candidates; it would mean that other systems were disadvantaging them, relative to party candidates.

The most you can say is that the Irish system is less disadvantageous to non-party candidate than many other systems are. But it doesn't favour them, relative to party candidates.

In the past we were as client focussed as today, or even more so, and we had the electoral system that we have today, and yet we elected far fewer independents. So I think we need to look a bit further to explain the rise in the numbers of non-party TDs.

One possible factor is a cultural change — a decline in the intensity of party identification/loyalty. Irish political parties can no longer rely on a large cohort of rusted-on supporters who have inherited a party allegiance; they have to earn the support of voters. And, it turns out, they're not so good at that.

Possibly related to this is a broader international change — declining public trust in institutions and political establishments. This has beein going on since the Global Financial Crisis. In other countries it has manifested in the rise of the far right/Trumpism/populism; in Ireland in a rise in independent/non-party/minor party TDs. To be honest, if the way this has played out in Ireland as compared to other countries is an outcome of our electoral system, it's a good outcome, not a bad one.

No, other way round. Take a step back: On 12 Dec, Hotblack Desiato suggested:

These 'technical groups' are the biggest load of nonsense ever.

To which Dulpit replied:

They're needed for speaking rights in the Dáil.

(Which I would say should be ". . . speaking and other rights in the Dáil".)

Which prompted Hotblack to say:

Well maybe if you don't want to join a party you don't get the benefits of joining one.

The implication being that, in Hotblack's view, speaking rights in the Dáil should be a benefit of party membership.

And this is the view that I have been resisting. Speaking rights, membership of Dáil Committees, etc. etc. aren't a benefrit of party membership shouldn't be allocated exclusively or preferentially to party TDs; party TDs and non-party TDs have the same electoral mandate, which is conferred by the voters, not by parties. Technical groups exist so that non-party TDs can be treated in the same was as party TDs when it comes to the organisation and execution of parliamentary business. This is a good and necessary thing. It should not be changed.

There is no formal "official opposition" in Ireland. There is one in the House of Commons, but not in the Dáil.

The largest opposition party is typically given precedence over other opposition parties, but there is no official status.