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ESRI: Irish House Prices Overvalued by 10%, Risk of "Painful Correction"

  • 12-12-2024 08:40AM
    #1
    Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 5,623 Mod ✭✭✭✭


    Is this the first time this has officially been declared in this cycle? The ESRI lay the blame at the Central Bank for relaxing lending limits, combined with lack of supply.

    The last crash was preceded by this type of commentary from Morgan Kelly and David McWilliams. Like for them, I'm sure the responses will be that the fundamentals are sound and going nowhere.



«1

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,558 ✭✭✭✭billyhead


    If there was a crash how much do you think they would fall by?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,141 ✭✭✭Jonnyc135


    Asset prices follow global liquidity, when 08 crash happend global liquidity fell off a cliff that what caused the deflation throughout the world. It took the central bank over a year and a half before the came up with Quantitative easing (printing money) to bail the system out. For context, Signature bank, Silicon Valley bank and credit suisse bank all failed in early 2022, a Bank lending arm was set up over night by the central banks to print money and be the lender of last resort to bail the banks out and save depositors. Printing money using QE programs to buy mortgage backed securities will do nothing bar inflate house prices and all assets.
    My bet watch global liquidity, if that’s trending upwards, so will everything else including inflation so I wouldn’t be expecting a 08 deflationary crash



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 55,567 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    Would they have said a couple of years ago, when house prices were say 15% lower than now, that they were underpriced?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,074 ✭✭✭✭NIMAN


    Who can say that a house is worth 200k, 240k, 300k?

    Surely it's worth whatever someone is willing to pay for it?

    House prices have been rising rapidly in this country for maybe 4 or 5 years now. Why are they now suddenly overpriced?

    Post edited by NIMAN on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,596 ✭✭✭✭Atlantic Dawn
    GDY151


    If it became general knowledge that you could not pay a cent on your mortgage for nearly 10 years and remain in your house, it's then prices would collapse.



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  • Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 5,623 Mod ✭✭✭✭spockety


    Willing.. and able.

    Willingness is a sentiment, ability is a question of resources. Both are required, and they don't stay static over time. But who knows, nobody has a crystal ball, no matter how confident their predictions.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 55,567 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    'What somebody is willing to pay for' is not a benchmark I'd use when we're talking about a scarce necessity. Otherwise you could use that to justify pharma companies charging excessive prices for necessary drugs.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,074 ✭✭✭✭NIMAN


    True, but there's only a problem when those buying the houses can't really afford them. Like in the Celtic Tiger days.

    These days, the people paying daft money for houses more than likely have big incomes and good jobs. Plenty of savings. Of course these people could lose their jobs, but the way the economy is going now, it doesn't look likely anytime soon.

    Let's be honest, which way do we think these already inflated house prices are going to go in 2025?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 34,115 ✭✭✭✭zell12


    image.png

    ..



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,242 ✭✭✭✭Danzy


    House prices can only outpace wage growth for so long.

    It may be old fashioned but mortgages and repayment ability should be linked



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,090 ✭✭✭Claw Hammer


    The good old "it's different THIS time" and "the fundamentals are sound".
    When were we hearing that before?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,056 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    "From the above figure, it is clear that there appeared to be significant undervaluation in the Irish market in the period up to 2018. This was a fall-out from the significant reduction in prices that occurred after the global financial crisis. House prices increased sharply and persistently during this period. From 2018 through 2022, the housing market was in equilibrium, with actual prices and those suggested by the model being practically the same. However, a divergence has emerged over the past 18 months, with actual house prices now somewhat larger than those suggested by the model."



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 55,567 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    to explain that graph (the use of 'actual house prices' in it is misleading - actual house prices by a normal definition are about 110-115% ofwhat they were in 2007 - that graph suggests 75%)

    Based on the model of house prices in Egan et al. (2024a), the following model is estimated:
    ln 𝑃𝑡 = 𝛼 + 𝛽1𝑙𝑛𝐴𝑡 + 𝛽2𝐶𝐶𝑡 + 𝛽3𝑃𝑅𝐴𝑇𝑡 + 𝛽4𝐶𝐴𝑃𝑡 (1)
    where 𝑃𝑡 is house price levels, 𝐴𝑡 is an affordability indicator, which combines household disposable income and mortgage interest rates, 𝐶𝐶𝑡 is a credit conditions indicator, 𝐶𝐴𝑃𝑡 is a housing stock variable and 𝑃𝑅𝐴𝑇𝑡 is the ratio of the population in the key house purchasing cohort (25–44 years of age). The model is estimated over the period 1981–2024 and the actual prices and model-based estimates are compared in Figure 18 below.12

    so is that graph simply predicting what has happened - we'd expect house prices to shoot up because of the number of people looking to buy, and the housing stock variable?

    i.e. does the model predict 'yeah, we'd expect prices to be sky high but they're actually slightly below the model now'? that is a very different way of looking at whether the market is affordable or not.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,056 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    This is the chart of actual nominal house prices in the latest ESRI bulletin:

    image.png

    The black line in Fig 18 doesn't make sense to me.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 461 ✭✭Rooks


    addressing-housing-construction-is-critical-for-the-new-v0-0qblpe63fm3e1.jpeg

    I can see that correction happening any day now.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 4,557 ✭✭✭StevenToast


    How has no one uttered these 2 words in this thread yet....

    Soft Landing......

    "SUBSCRIBE TO BOARDS YOU TIGHT CÙNT".....Plato 400 B.C



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,132 ✭✭✭RichardAnd


    If house prices collapsed tomorrow, it would be answering the prayers of many people up and down the country. Of course, that wouldn't happen in a vacuum, but if the choice is between being perpetually unable to buy a home whilst paying enormous rent for poor accommodation or seeing the whole thing collapse……

    Well I don't especially want to see another 2008-2012 recession, but if I were a young man again, I'd probably think "f**k it" and take my chances.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,824 ✭✭✭celtic_oz


    Are people excited ?

    image.png


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,217 ✭✭✭spaceHopper


    No, it's a big purchase and most are funded by borrowing so it's worth what banks are willing to lend on it and what you are willing to put down as a deposit.

    You are limited by your cash on hand and ability to borrow.

    The banks are limited by, central bank rules, on how much they can lend to you and on the risk of default.

    They have to ensure that you have sufficient equity in the house that if you default they can sell it and cover the debit. So of you bought for 400k with a 10% deposit and prices fell 15% and you default, they lose money.

    If we had a credit crunch and falling house prices then you'd see an over correction so if they are 10% over valued they could drop 15 to 20% easily.

    Timing it is impossible, if you are looking to buy - just do it and get on with life



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,490 ✭✭✭herbalplants


    Remember the shills only get paid when you react to them.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,589 ✭✭✭Emblematic


    Not a bubble. Not yet at least since prices are fully justified by rents. Before the last crash, rents though high for the time, did not keep up with house prices.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 461 ✭✭Rooks


    I've yet to see a reasonable explanation as to exactly why we are in the middle of a 2008 style credit bubble.

    Lots of claims that we are with no substance.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 55,567 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    Well, a hell of a lot of the reason behind house prices being so high is demand is consistently outstripping supply. If supply does catch up with demand the prices might return to a more sensible level, and that child be a significant decrease, which would be the definition of a bubble?

    It might have different underlying reasons to the last one, but that doesn't mean it's not a bubble.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 85 ✭✭chicks4free


    In 2008 the banks were giving money to people who couldn’t afford the mortgages when the sh1t hit the fan.

    I remember one bank offering a 70% LTV loan to lads who couldn’t prove how much they were earning. Cash in hand brigade - who themselves were building the over supply at the time.

    No over supply now. If someone gets into trouble with their mortgage there is a queue forming to buy that house.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 461 ✭✭Rooks


    --->CREDIT<--- bubble

    Yet again, nothing of substance is being said. I'll respond to anyone who offers anything of substance. If I don't respond, it means I believe you're talking nonsense.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 55,567 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    if you want the discussion to only go precisely the way you want it to, i suspect you'll be disappointed.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,589 ✭✭✭Emblematic


    Genuine demand for housing outstripping supply is not a bubble though, and prices returning to normal after supply catching up is not the same as a bubble bursting.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 55,567 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    If the end result is still the same though... Though a supply/demand 'bubble' is probably more likely to self-regulate I guess.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 8,674 ✭✭✭El Gato De Negocios


    There won't be a price crash in the next number of years because simply put, there is still huge demand. I was chatting to a mate over the weekend who is a project manager with one of the biggest construction outfits in the country. He reckons there is a huge issue with infrastructure like water and sanitation and simply put, in large urban areas these things are at capacity. This is going to have an effect on the number of houses being built because you cannot build houses unless they can be serviced with the basics. Electricity infrastructure is also near capacity too according to him.



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