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Sinn Fein and how do they form a government dilemma

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Comments

  • Administrators Posts: 55,832 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    Yes though playing the waiting game is not without significant risk.

    SF did this for 5 years and they ended up further away from government rather than closer to it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 78,775 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    If they genuinely believe in change they need to forget about getting titbits of their policy implemented and take a look at how growing the party forces change. SF's growth and long game strategy has forced the biggest change in the political dynamic since partition.
    There's no arguing with data:

    2002

    FF 81 seats
    SF 5 seats

    2024

    FF 48 seats
    SF 39 seats.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,087 ✭✭✭almostover


    And yet they still have never been in government in the Dáil. And don't be going on about the 1st iterations of the Dáil, that was a different SF. Lab and SD won't coalesce with SF, or FF. Until that changes, SF will be looking on from opposition.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 307 ✭✭Derkaiser93


    Agreed it is definitely a risk and you could regress. But I think helping your rivals by propping them up in government every time and then being the ones who suffer the wrath of the electorate next election is just a bad strategy in the medium and long term for left parties.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 78,775 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    They won't be going in as the whipping boys and girls. That couldn't be more clear,

    The data above could not more starkly underline that by growing your powerbase you can affect fundamental change.

    It's is a trite simplistic observation and basically stupid taunt to say 'looking on'.

    Opposition should and does have a role and duty in governance.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,242 ✭✭✭✭Danzy


    Can the left wing parties work together, how would a PbP wing of a government operate or last, they would be racing out the door as quickly as possible.

    Labour are eager to get back in with FF or FG. They hate SF, and dislike the Soc Dems as stealing their clothes, the Soc Dems would fracture at the first hard decision.

    And most of the above are continously focusing on middle class left ideals and are becoming less and less working class each year, ignoring that base is going to keep FG and FF in for a decade



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,786 ✭✭✭Dick phelan


    I'm sorry but no, if wanting to deal with our immigration problem is far right then about half the country is far right, and again since when does being pro life make someone far right. I'm sick of people tarnishing decent people with these labels. To even cast someone like Tobin in the same way as Derek Bleigh is an insult.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,786 ✭✭✭Dick phelan


    Are SD happy to be in opposition forever, because if they are unwilling to ever do a deal with FF or FG that's where they'll be for a long time to come. Problem with these left wing parties is they're no pragmatic enough, great to have your ideas but not much use when you can't implement any of them.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,368 ✭✭✭✭jimmycrackcorm


    I hear this often quoted:

     as I keep saying the majority of people voted for an alternative to the government.

    But that is patently not true. Nobody in Kerry votes the Healy-Raes in as an alternative to the government. Nor the people of Tipperary vote in Michael Lowry (given especially he votes along FG lines anyway). Basically anyone voting for an independent is not voting for an alternative to the government as these are mostly pothole fixers.

    There's certainly no Left majority in any case.




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,075 ✭✭✭✭dulpit


    I normally advocate that you go into government if the chance arises. The risk this time is that FF and FG are only 2 seats short of a majority as it is. That means they have options, and I would assume it means that if they were to bring a partner in then that partner's ability to get stuff done is reduced. If FF + FG were 9 or 10 short of a majority, then Labour or Soc Dems should go in. They could use their numbers to get a good chunk of their policies implemented, similar to the greens last time out.

    But going in just to get over the line without being in a really good bargaining position is not worth it. They might get a small number of policies implemented, but can always be dropped along the way if needed by FF/FG.

    This time out Labour and Soc Dems need to consolodate and act as responsible opposition and grow from there. Who knows, they could end up stealing Sinn Fein support too.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,075 ✭✭✭✭dulpit


    Both of those things (anti-immigration and pro-life) are right wing. Aontu and Indpedenent Ireland are clearly further right than FF or FG. They're also clearly not as far right as the likes of the National Party. There is a scale here.

    Similar to how Labour and Soc Dems are left wing, but not as left as say PBP.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,087 ✭✭✭almostover


    Whipping boys? SF have the 2nd most number of seats! I agree that an effective opposition is hugely important for a well functioning government. But the current opposition don't work well together, and don't have a common policy platform as an opposition. Maybe that will change over the next 5 years but I wouldn't bet on it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,786 ✭✭✭Dick phelan


    Yes they are further right but not far right, the people they got elected are decent respectable people who don't deserve the smear of far right. We all know when people say far right it's meant as an insult.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 14,897 ✭✭✭✭ednwireland



    I think the greens were pretty much architects of there own downfall. cash to rte, paying artists, o gormans missing children and immigration tweets, ryan blocking road schemes where there's no other transport, recycle scheme. the list goes on.

    My weather

    https://www.ecowitt.net/home/share?authorize=96CT1F



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,549 ✭✭✭Raoul Duke III


    The people who vote SD/LP/GP are far more aligned to the people who vote FF/FG than to the people who vote SF. Look at transfer patterns for confirmation.

    i.e. FF/FG/LP/SD/GP = 'Middle Ireland'

    Any fantasy of a 'government of the left' that includes SF is just that, fantasy.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,242 ✭✭✭✭Danzy


    What a strange way to look at it.

    Bernie Sanders used describe large scale immigration as a libertarian koch brothers idea. Precisely because it hit the working class the hardest.

    As his party became dominated by rich activists he changed. Going along to get along.

    The richer you are, the more open your class is to large scale immigration.

    It's why trump won the working class, why he won Latino men, native Americans, Asians.

    It's why whites on 100k+ were thr only demographic to see an increase for Harris.

    A relaxed position on immigration is always free market in effect, whether the person calling for it has a Marx T-shirt on or an Ayn Rand one.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,195 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    Understand your sensitivity, but there is nothing essentially "wrong" about being far right, it is a political label reflecting the facts. Those who follow a Christian conservative approach are far-right, they are against a woman's right to choose, which is anti-freedom in the same way that an approach to controlling immigration is anti-freedom.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,075 ✭✭✭✭dulpit


    What a strange way to look at it by bringing up a bunch of American politicans (all of whom are further to the right than any of our main parties) as a comparison.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 9,887 ✭✭✭blackwhite


    Whilst certainly right-wing on social issues, Aontu are pretty left on economic issues and would hold relatively similar economic views to SF



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 74,567 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    And in particular, an Independent but referencing "his party"!



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,074 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    Richmond and FG are going to be in government.
    SF will be warming the opposition benches for another 5 years.

    Spot the difference.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 557 ✭✭✭Dont Be at It


    Selective data picking there. The economic crash was by far the biggest cause of the decline in support for FF. SF's growth was as a result of this not the other way around.

    Also you could say FF have done very well in the past decade. Climbing from an all time low of 20 seatsin 2011 back up to 48 this year. SF have stagnated/gone backwards in the past 5 years. And all this during a time when other sitting governments around Europe have been getting nailed.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,786 ✭✭✭Dick phelan


    Good God man, are you seriously suggesting placing any control on immigration is far right and anti freedom, then I'd say the majority in Ireland are far right by your logic. You know full well far right is a smear, we constantly hear about the dangers of the far right, to pretend otherwise is extremely dishonest. This is the problem with a certain section on the left, they think anyone on the right is automatically far right, the far right have almost zero support in Ireland, as evidence by their abysmal election results.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,710 ✭✭✭BlueSkyDreams


    Except SF are on a downward trajectory, comparing 2020 vs 2024 GE results.

    22% decline in FPV & a 3% decline in seat share, between the last election and this one.

    With Labour and the Soc Dems gaining support rapidly during the same period, the 2 left wing parties could well push SF into 5th place by the next GE in 2029, if SFs decline in FPV at circa 20% is sustained.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,614 ✭✭✭ShagNastii


    I think of all the parties that could do with stewing and developing a bit are the SD.

    IMHO I think they have always come across as pragmatic and credible. It is why they have grown support. They were only founded in 2015 and have doubled their seats in the Dail over the last two elections.

    If I was a SD I'd be taking a step back and to focus on growth. The SDs could be in serious contention to become the rock solid 4th party going forward. They are the offering of the left that is most palatable to FF/FG voters.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,195 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    Far right is not a smear, the dangers of the far right are equal to the dangers of the far left. Extremism is always an issue no matter where it comes from.

    I wouldn't vote further left than the Greens or Labour and I wouldn't vote further right than the Progressive Democrats.

    That means my vote never goes to PBP, II, SF, Aontu, Solidarity or the various nationalist parties.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 78,775 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Richmond knew he'd be in government no matter how FG done. It's the FF way.
    He could have been gloating last week never mind this one.





  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 78,775 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    With Labour and the Soc Dems gaining support rapidly during the same period, the 2 left wing parties could well push SF into 5th place by the next GE in 2029, if SFs decline in FPV at circa 20% is sustained.

    If they do, they'll get my support.
    My goal was to end power swapping between FF and FG (done) now to end the powersharing.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,479 ✭✭✭landofthetree


    Provisional Sinn Fein,Liebour and the Social Democrats all claim to support the Nordic model. Yet they are against signal aspect small apartments. So they reject the housing that you get in Denmark,Sweden,Finland etc.

    They lack credibility.



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