Post-Green Party in Transport Ministry

Cookiemunster · 02-12-2024 11:47AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122912747#Comment_122912747

PT AND roads are needed. Bypasses to free up towns from traffic cost pittance compared to the multi billion PT schemes that are coming down the line. They don't need to fall by the wayside to pay for the PT schemes.

There are very few large road schemes needed, so these small safety schemes will be the main road building in the future post M20/M21/M28.

KrisW1001 · 02-12-2024 11:48AM

"National connectivity" is already well served by DUB (but distinctly lacking elsewhere). The parties advocating lifting the cap mainly want to increase holiday travel. That's grand, and despite what some may think, I have no issue with people being able to fly abroad at a reasonable price, but I'm a bit tired of the doublespeak from Ryanair and DAA in particular over this issue. They want to earn more money at DUB, that's the beginning and end of it. Dressing that up as "providing international connections essential for our economic growth" is nonsense when you look at the destinations that are being "cut back" due to the cap.

They have a solution: make a proper case, based on the current state of aircraft technology and the proposed operating hours, and ask the council for the cap to be lifted. If that fails, appeal in court.

We have three other airports in the state that are under-served, if we were so desperate for connectivity. As @josipsays, improving access between these would reduce the need for everyone to travel via DUB. M20 and N24 are a major part of unlocking Shannon (right now, it's an ordeal to get to from Cork or the Southeast), and N17 improvements will do the same for Knock. Better rail links would also help, but the low volume and odd times of air travel mean roads will always be the primary access mode.

Those links are things that the Minister is directly responsible for, and they should be dealt with before meddling in the planning system.

@gossamerfabric assume what you will, but I'm more interested in why you expect me to reply to your posts.

steinbock123 · 02-12-2024 12:13PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058382901/post-green-party-in-transport-ministry

Well I hope it will put an end to any more cycle lanes being built. The country is infested with them. We have enough already. This is not Holland.

Zebra3 · 02-12-2024 12:19PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122912967#Comment_122912967

Sickening, isn’t it?

Healthy, environmentally friendly travel. What more evil stuff do they have planned for us, I wonder.

hans aus dtschl · 02-12-2024 12:21PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122912967#Comment_122912967

Sympathy reply.

3/10: good effort.

hans aus dtschl · 02-12-2024 12:23PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122912999#Comment_122912999

Enough is enough!

Thunder87 · 02-12-2024 12:25PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122912874#Comment_122912874

I'm not arguing otherwise really, just making the point that desperately needed public transport projects serving millions of journeys have been ignored for decades while at the same time rural bypasses often motivated by vote getting were prioritised. I don't think long-fingering basically every road project has been a positive but the mentality shift it's forcibly created will hopefully be a positive legacy for the Greens where we've finally started to get serious about public transport investment.

If we'd continued with the status-quo of almost exclusively prioritising roads then a good chunk of the PT projects currently getting close to shovel ready would probably still be years off

gossamerfabric · 02-12-2024 12:27PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122912879#Comment_122912879

Excuse me but I want to be able to travel affordably to the main capital cities in Europe and other Countries with which we have strong business ties. That involves our two LCCs, Ryanair and Aer Lingus being able to open up profitable routes on those city pairs.

You want us to continue being victim to the SLAPPs and vexatious litigation from various anti-airport groups. The courts and planning process are abused to hinder development in the national interest by petty local issue campaigners.

Thunder87 · 02-12-2024 12:47PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122912879#Comment_122912879

Connectivity is served right now (though only by exceeding the cap) but the cap is a permanent constraint that without action will still exist in 20 years, regardless of population growth or new economic ties. It's an idiotic arbitrary number based on solely road capacity of Fingal CoCo's LAP in the early 2000's. There've also been several slot applications rejected already for next year with potential connections to places like China, India, Brazil and others unable to start.
Ryanair are a private company in the business of making money. The DAA as already pointed out pay large dividends to the state and fully fund all their large infrastructure projects, a rare example of a really successful state/semi-state operation that's no burden on the state and your solution is "f**k them"!
The cap has nothing whatsoever to do with a noise, aircraft technology or opening hours and as mentioned is based on a factor entirely outside DAA's control
Cork/Shannon/Knock all eat into each other's catchment areas and serve almost entirely rural provinces, no arguments that we should increase transport connections but any airline is free to start any route they see fit right now if they feel demand exists, clearly in most cases they've determined it doesn't.
The point that DAA are bad for Cork I'd also dispute, Cork has comfortably taken over from Shannon as our second busiest airport, has a nice new terminal with plenty of capacity and is the fastest growing airport in the state. Shannon by comparison, released from the DAA's shackles have stagnated and gone backwards in the same timeframe.

Cookiemunster · 02-12-2024 01:22PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122913027#Comment_122913027

Metrolink, DART+ and BusConnects are all FG projects. While they are in government they will continue to progress and they haven't been sped up one bit by having the Greens in government.

KrisW1001 · 02-12-2024 01:24PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122913104#Comment_122913104

I don’t have any position on the cap - if it increased, I’d be fine with that too. My objection to all of this was the way that the parties were trying to get the Minister to “fix” the situation rather than them going through the proper channels; and the way they blamed the Dept of Transport for not doing something that legally it cannot do.

DAA submitted an application to Fingal Co Council on 13 November, so I’ll withdraw the accusation of them doing nothing. I’ll still happily accuse Ryanair of using the media as a way of sidestepping the processes that apply to every other business, though, because O’Leary’s been at that for decades.

On your points:

The cap is permanent until DAA does something about changing it. They were attempting to pass the buck to the Minister instead of looking after their own interests themselves. Now they appear to be engaging with Fingal CC.

Ryanair, as a private company, deserves no support from the taxpayer. They get a lot already, and they bitch and moan about every cent they have to pay for airport fees. My “solution” wasn’t “**** them”, it was “if they won’t bother to work with DAA to fix this problem themselves, then **** them”

The reasons for the cap are set out in the planning. You’re correct that noise was not a concern - my fault for being misled by other posters. The grounds for the cap were related to road traffic and parking capacity from T2. Parking availability at DUB has decreased in recent years, and there’s no new road infrastructure planned. It’s up to DAA to show that they can increase passenger numbers without clogging north Dublin with cars. The factors are not all outside their control: DAA operates the largest car parking facilities at DUB. There are ways that they could reduce car travel and shift passengers, especially holiday passengers, to coach services. They could add better access to the parking they have on site, to reduce effects on the surrounding roads.

Cork/Shannon theoretically share catchment. But the shared catchment is really only theoretical: try driving between Cork and Limerick when you’re got a check-in deadline to meet: good luck. That’s why I said M20 would be essential. With M20 in place, then terminal to terminal, ORK and SNN are 125 km apart - about 1h20 by motorway; compare that with 2h40 to DUB. Cork is likely to never be able to offer long-haul travel, but if Shannon were easier to get to, it would fulfil that role for the region: again, the alternative is going all the way to Dublin. Concentration of services at DUB means that people outside of Leinster are already resigned to having to drive a distance to the airport: going to Cork or Shannon rather than Dublin will usually be a shorter, less congested trip. I do concede that Knock is a regional airport with a very low population in its catchment (it should never have been built there, and once built, it robbed Galway of a chance to have an airport, but Holy Ireland, etc., etc.).

Cork has increased leisure and especially charter passenger numbers, but services to European capitals (the “economic connectivity” argument) have been reduced over the last decade. Cork also cannot, and likely will never, support widebody aircraft and long-haul traffic. This isn’t entirely DAA’s fault, but there has been a certain timidity about pursuing any runway extension at ORK, and I wonder if it’s because the result could shift lucrative long-haul landing fees from DUB, for a net gain of zero.

hans aus dtschl · 02-12-2024 01:58PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122913219#Comment_122913219

I think a lot of people blame the negatives of BusConnects on "de greens" for what it's worth. It'll be a big effort for FG to start owning some of the (really good) projects that they've been involved in. This is the downside of allowing the media to pile onto your junior coalition partner, it's a double-edged sword.

But despite their media work, the FG manifesto had OK aspirations when it comes to sustainable transport. FF seemed to be light on details. Social Democrats and Labour were more green than the Green Party on many issues. As others have said, it's the independents that we need to fear when it comes to a program for government.

Exit polls said that 50% of people think we're not doing enough on climate (as opposed to 20% saying we're doing too much). So if the broader trend towards sustainable transport gets reversed then you'd imagine there will be a political backlash to that.

Again and as we all know, a loud but very small minority are against sustainable transport projects. The biggest challenge is getting the "win" within a political cycle of 4 years.

ednwireland · 02-12-2024 02:01PM

i drove from donegal to the m3 parkway I was laughing when I hit my first dual carriageway with 36mins left of my journey

hans aus dtschl · 02-12-2024 02:24PM

Another one to look out for is that in the next GE, an €8billion fine will loom on the horizon for us. This will possibly sharpen minds during this election term. My understanding is that we will not meet agreed targets, that we don't have enough done and likely won't have enough done.

As I understand it, transport is currently doing reasonably OK, so a change here may be noticed and there may be a blame game during the life of this government.

bk · 02-12-2024 04:33PM

Kris, I'm afraid you are wrong about this. The cap at Dublin Airport does need to be fixed and will be fixed by the next government.

They will fix it by legislating to take planning of the airports out of the hands of local planning and instead given to a dedicated body or ABP instead. Just like how Railway Orders and offshore wind farms skip local councils and go straight to ABP/etc.

They are considered as projects of national importance and thus not up for decision by local planning and that is certainly true for our airports too. The current setup is complete madness.

Yes, Ryan and the Green party had been blocking such a move, not because he was Minister, but because they were a part of the government, a part of the cabinet and opposed to such a change. With them gone, it will be changed now.

bk · 02-12-2024 04:37PM

To answer the OP's question, overall I don't expect a big change. A reminder that the major projects, Metrolink, DART+, BusConnects are all FG projects, so I expect them to be continued.

I actually think a FG/FF government will need to be seen to get these projects actually going and under construction well before the next elections in 5 years time. They will want to be seen as actually doing something during the next 5 years.

What could possibly suffer is active travel projects outside of BusConnects, as they were more of a GP push. The other area was reduced fares, which was also a GP push, fair play to them. However having said that, the reduced fares are extremely popular, so it might look bad to see them reversed, so maybe they will stay in place.

magicbastarder · 03-12-2024 07:24AM

What are the bets we'll end up with a minister for transport from FF who has never given the topic a moment's thought before? Like or dislike Ryan, he went into that job knowing the brief better than the vast majority of previous ministers had.

KrisW1001 · 03-12-2024 08:32AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122915895#Comment_122915895

Indeed. We should remember that Ryan was preceded by... Shane Ross, Minister for (tran)SPORT!

I would hope that Transport is given to a member of Labour or SocDems (whichever it ends up being), as both parties have clear, detailed policies about transport... something you particularly can't say about FF.

magicbastarder · 03-12-2024 08:37AM

it's yet to be seen if either LAB or SD will go into coalition. FFG are two seats short of a simple majority. they may risk an alliance with independents or aontu, who would each have less leverage.

KrisW1001 · 03-12-2024 09:51AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122916016#Comment_122916016

If you’ll forgive the off-topicness of going into coalition formation, here’s why I say it’ll be one or the other of those parties:

A simple majority is 88, FF+FG have 86. For a stable government that can survive defections and by-elections, they will need about 95 seats, so 8-9 extra bodies.

The only potential options are: 1. SocDems (11 seats), 2. Labour (11 seats), or 3. a collection of like-minded independent TDs (there's maybe eight to ten). Of those, it’s less risky to go with a party, and both SocDems and Labour have more than enough seats to do the job. More importantly, both have said they’d go into government with this coalition… on conditions, of course. A collection of independents is theoretically possible, but you end up having to make eight or nine new deals every time there's a major vote.

As for the others, they’re too small to be genuinely useful, and also not a good political fit with the big parties. Independent Ireland is a little too socially right-wing for either party, and I personally don’t believe they’re a real party - they’re just as likely to fall apart mid-term as any other collection of independents. PBP are too small, and too radical to survive in a coalition. Aontú would be completely out of the question even if they had 10 seats rather than two - they’re basically Sinn Féin, except that they opposed SF on the only things SF agreed with FF/FG about.

So, SocDems or Labour. This is good for infrastructure, because both parties actually have thought-out policies in the area, and believe in more investment in energy, roads and rail. They’re also actually pretty green (small-G) in outlook, but unlike the “real” Greens, neither party has a vocal wing of “hobbit-folk” who vehemently oppose any road building.

On that, here’s what they promise on the Transport portfolio:

The SocDems Transport manifesto: ClimateNatureOnline.pdf (from p. 22)

The Labour Transport manifesto: Labour-Manifesto-2024-Building-Better-Together.pdf (from p. 76)

Some of those policies are more extreme than even the Green Party had (Labour claims it’ll use a 5:1 ratio in favour of PT!!), but manifestos are the place where parties can promise the moon on a stick, knowing that all those promises will be watered down.

bk · 03-12-2024 10:50AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122916007#Comment_122916007

While Shane Ross was Minister for Transport, his department created the Metrolink, DART+ and BusConnects projects, along with CMATS in Cork.

He also had the NTA set up a dedicated National Cycling Office to create cycling infrastructure.

While these projects still obviously have a long way to go, he set the basis for the transformation of Dublin's public transport infrastructure.

Personally I'd like to see a FG minister of the department, they seem more interested in big infrastructure projects and more focused on the cities then FF who are more rural focused.

StormForce13 · 03-12-2024 10:58AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122915895#Comment_122915895

Ryan is still Minister for Transport until a new Government is elected, which could take months.

And, as a retiring Green fanatic with no re-election worries, he can still wreak havoc for the next few weeks!

magicbastarder · 03-12-2024 11:18AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122916459#Comment_122916459

how much of the work of a department can be attributed to staff, and how much to the minister?

for example, did ross go in intending to do those, or was he presented with them to authorise?

Cookiemunster · 03-12-2024 11:23AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122916569#Comment_122916569

Ah here, you can't praise Ryan and the Green for all they did for transport and then question if the previous Transport Minister actually had any power. Either the department staff rule the roost or the minister does. You can't have it both ways to suit your argument.

Larbre34 · 03-12-2024 11:25AM

There's no question of large scale public transport projects being scaled back. If anything, a government without the Greens will want them delivered faster and with less daft hoops to jump through.

This Country is growing fast, especially our cities. We need fast, efficent, safer interurban roads, like the M20, M28, GCRR and probably the Leinster ring route outer bypass of Dublin, but we need fast, efficient, safe, convenient and reliable light and heavy rail.

Its worth reflecting that during 4.5 years in office, Eamon Ryan delivered not one yard, not one inch of new rail line, main or tram. His record is beyond dismal.

magicbastarder · 03-12-2024 11:25AM

that's why i'm asking!

what i said was at least ryan went in with an idea of what he wanted.

but i will add that it seems weird that ross might have gotten so much done given he came across as disinterested a lot of the time.

StormForce13 · 03-12-2024 11:28AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122916459#Comment_122916459

Yep the modest, self-effacing Shane Ross was the dog's spheroids, right enough!

https://www.thesun.ie/news/4481682/shane-ross-blasted-pictures-electric-car-charger-doesnt-work-marlay-park-dublin/

Cookiemunster · 03-12-2024 11:32AM

The biggest thing that needs to change though is that transport needs to be separated from tourism and sport. Especially with the big ticket projects that are just around the corner.

Flinty997 · 03-12-2024 11:42AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122916459#Comment_122916459

While he might have signed off on these as they crossed his desk I can't imagine any of these originated with him or that he campaigned on.

bk · 03-12-2024 11:45AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122916569#Comment_122916569

The work is done by the staff obviously, but obviously under the direction of the Minister. They can't work on developing these projects unless the Minister gives them the go ahead.

Sometimes it can be bottom up, Department staff: "Hey minister, we have this rough idea for a project, here is it" The minister, I like the idea, continue to develop it and here is more staff and money to help develop it further along until it is in a shape I can bring to the Cabinet.

Other times it can be top down, Cabinet to Minister, "We need to come up with a plan to improve public transport", Minister to staff: "Develop a plan for improved public transport that I can deliver to the Cabinet".

Either way it is the government cabinet who will eventually look at the project and decide to give it the go ahead or not, to include in the NDP and thus programme for government or not.

Like it or not, these projects were very much developed, driven and in the end approved for inclusion in the NDP by a FG led government.

Post-Green Party in Transport Ministry

Comments