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Waterford Airport.

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 9,901 ✭✭✭blackwhite


    Is strawmanning and personal attacks all you are capable of?


    Instead of wasting your energy throwing abuse at anyone who isn’t blindly cheerleading for the airport management, maybe try doing even the slightest bit of research into how the Comers operate.

    Buying up land banks on the cheap, and then pushing to have them rezoned for residential development is core to how their business operates. The Sentinel office block in Sandyford, Dublin; the Corrib Great Southern in Galway, Shannon Oaks Hotel in Loughrea.
    All left idle for over a decade whilst the Comers pushed to have them rezoned as residential.

    Hitching the hopes of the airport on investors who have a history of mothballing assets and then trying to get them rezoned for housing isn’t the way to secure the future of Waterford Airport



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,223 ✭✭✭fuzzy dunlop


    Great you Googled again! Selectively though! You don't know what straw manning is. Or to be more accurate you are playing the old trick of "Accusation in a mirror". Do the Comers speculate? Yes they do. Is that all they do? No its isn't! Is speculation part of their business? Yes it is! Is that illegitimate? No it isn't! Have they built stuff on the the land they purchased. Yes they have! Do they "hoard" property indefinitely? No they don't. You may as well claim that their core business is horse breeding. It would be no less ridiculous. You absolutely refuse to acknowledge that the land is obviously an incentive if it is contractually tied to development within a given time period or that the risk of indefinitely "hoarding" land can easily be mitigated against. They have done this with the North Quays. They can easily do it here.

    P.S. Before you accuse me of "personal attacks" keep in mind your condescending tone when I initially asked you a civil question. Again "accusation in a mirror'.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 9,901 ✭✭✭blackwhite


    What is it with your bizarre need to throw personal insults every time someone disagrees with you?


    I’ve lived near another Comer file site for quite some time - so have taken an interest for a long time in how their business operates. Their business is building houses - and core to that is getting land on the cheap which is zoned for something else - and doing nothing with it until they can get it rezoned.

    Having a Green minister for transport is currently a blocker to any airport development in Ireland - including WAY - but that blocker will be gone soon.

    Having a management team that appears keen to hand over the site to investors with a track record of leaving land idle until they can build houses on it would be a significantly bigger blocker to restoring commercial aviation than an unfriendly minister



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,223 ✭✭✭fuzzy dunlop


    Again why are you in denial about the fact that that these concerns can be mitigated against legally? Why are you in denial about the fact that you set the tone for this argument when I asked you a perfectly civil question? That is what is bizarre here. Once again the "accusations in a mirror", which seems to be your crutch at this point. Read your posts for god's sake



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 9,901 ✭✭✭blackwhite


    There’s zero mention of any mitigation clauses in the document Damien Tiernan shared. The only person claiming they exist is you.

    To the core of the issue, there’s zero commercial rationale for handing over the land. It’s already available for airport use from the council at a peppercorn rental.

    If handing it over to the Comers - what is the incentive for them if the zoning is maintained for airport use? Their airport is unlikely to ever be a profitable private business without significant ongoing state operating subsidies. As an aviation asset it’s not likely to ever be something that could be sold on for much value.
    However if the airport was to fail - then it becomes prime land for rezoning and suddenly has significant commercial value - which happens to be exactly the type of investment the Comers have a track record of perusing.

    The North Quays are a completely different proposition. The value in the land there lies in it being developed for housing and commercial buildings - which aligns with the council’s plans for both the site and the city.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,403 ✭✭✭Cosmo Kramer


    If you can't even understand a basic concept of aviation economics being that it's harder to fill a larger airplane, then I don't think there's really any point in continuing to discuss this with you.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,223 ✭✭✭fuzzy dunlop


    In other words you don't understand the basic concept of aviation economics, because if you did you would explain it to us. Look there have been multiple people in the industry including Michael O'Leary iirc who stated the lack of compatibility for larger jets is the issue. But let's not kid ourselves. You're here because you're sore about Galway airport and you think funding for Waterford airport is less funding for Galway. It's the typical stroke Fahey politics.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,403 ✭✭✭Cosmo Kramer


    That's actually hilarious that you think that's why I'm here and shows again that you don't have the first clue what you're on about. Galway airport was another dead duck that was correctly cut off from the government financial tap once the M6 opened. The "sit-in" the staff held at the time was comically unsuccessful as well. Presumably they eventually all just gave up and went home.

    There are already enough operational airports in the state, if anything there might be one too many already. We definitely don't need any more - particularly one in a hopeless location that can only hope to operate off the back of significant ongoing subsidy.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,223 ✭✭✭fuzzy dunlop


    I never claimed any mitigation clauses exist. Show me specifically where I said they exist? Straw manning much? It seems as well as initially debasing the thread with your condescension you are now outright misquoting. Ever post I made has been qualified with the word……IF! You are talking about the airport as if it it is only an aviation asset. The economic potential of the airport goes beyond that. Despite the airport being a minnow, Shane Ross grudgingly acknowledged this when he realized there has been a relatively small but burgeoning warehouse/logistics and light industry footprint there. Is the document Damien Tiernan posted a contract of transfer? If not then it means diddly. If it is then please provide a link. If the government has to indefinitely provide subsidies is a red herring because you have no information either way that that will be the case. Again the concerns you are talking about can easily be mitigated by a legal instrument. The point about the North Quays is that it CAN be done. The plans for the NQ is irrelevant!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,223 ✭✭✭fuzzy dunlop


    Funny you weren't calling Galway a dead duck before. Or Knock for that matter which you are practically championing. Knock is literally in the middle of nowhere. In mo mans land between Castlebar and Carrick on Shannon! The location of Knock is a hell of a lot less feasible than Waterford. My point still stands that you are not here to have a bona fide discussion.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,403 ✭✭✭Cosmo Kramer




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,349 ✭✭✭✭road_high


    To be fair Knock airport is in a very good location. Sure it’s quite rural in itself but it’s very central for the whole west of Ireland and the north midlands and close to several national routes and a railway line. Several large towns within an hour or 90mins away and a strong tourist area central to



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,212 ✭✭✭914


    I agree, I don't like when the argument gets into a tit for tat against other airports, what ever about making comparison against other airports as to why it could work then I am all for that.

    Getting back on topic regarding the junior minister comments that reaching 100k passengers in year one seems overly ambitious.

    If the airport managed to get an airline in doing a Waterford →London route and only operated ever second day.

    Filling the aircraft it both directions would give just shy of 70k passengers. 189 passengers in each direction.

    Add an additional flight, or daily flight or summer flights and that 100k looks very easy



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,821 ✭✭✭dzilla


    Agreed, the coastal location of WAT kinda limits its catchment in that sense as its central to counties north / east and west but not south of it well unless you count Tramore



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 40,696 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Not much point mentioning a railway line in relation to Knock when it doesn't serve it in any way.

    It's very hard to believe that the Comers will change their habits of a lifetime at this stage.

    Also Michael O'Leary can and does say whatever he likes and it's invariably self-serving spin with, at best, a grain of truth. Yes, Ryanair can't serve Waterford as things stand but that's a convenient out for him. He can pretend that he really, really wants to serve it (and not just to block others) but it's doubtful to say the least.

    I'm partial to your abracadabra
    I'm raptured by the joy of it all



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 151 ✭✭Dum_Dum_2


    So your position is this: on completion of the extension Waterford would be the only full-length runway airport on the island without a low cost carrier?

    What would be the reasons for this exceptionalism? What makes an extended Waterford Airport so special that it would be outlier?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 151 ✭✭Dum_Dum_2


    Travel by road to Waterford Airport would be far more reliable as the congestion risk is minimal. Drive times to Cork and Dublin Airports require significant padding to mitigate congestion risk. Their airports are 'on the wrong side' too. The longer the journey and the greater the pinch-points the more padding required. You'll need a departure time in the small hours to minimise this.

    Outbound journey times to airports should be measured in terms of reliability not distance.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,424 ✭✭✭azimuth17


    So the coastal location of Cork doesn't hinder it at all? All this argument and justification about strategic investment in a small regional facility, just like we had to justify 24/7 cardiology or a motorway to Dublin. Substitute 24/7 for airport in all of the above and the rationale is the same. People trying to tell us for whatever reason that we should not have it. Well the second word is off!

    Will all the naysayers ever realise that we "wants it" and we'll keep plugging until we get it?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 448 ✭✭invara


    This Government is gone, and so is the airport proposal. It is the next Government's business.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 40,696 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    You are assuming the extension will happen. And that the Comers will change from life-long land speculators to being happy to part-own an at best marginally profitable (with state subsidy) airport.

    I'm partial to your abracadabra
    I'm raptured by the joy of it all



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,223 ✭✭✭fuzzy dunlop


    Try engaging a couple of brain cells. Go to Knock and say a prayer for that ability.It will be life changing for you.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,223 ✭✭✭fuzzy dunlop


    It's a dubious Marian shrine with an international airport. That's all that need be said. Paid for by lobbying Charlie Haughey and transactional politics.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,349 ✭✭✭✭road_high


    Not really. Pariah pump politics initially brought it (and far play to them as there was very little up west in those days, we in the south east always had some industry and strong agriculture to depend on) but now It’s doing very well for itself as a viable business. Have family up the north midlands and everyone uses Knock airport. It’s extremely convenient for a huge swathe of the west and north midlands.
    A tiny fraction of business is to do with knock shrine now.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,273 ✭✭✭friendlyfun


    Too many tosspots here



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 138 ✭✭dan575283578


    can't get over killian mangan thinking we should build a rail line to cork rather than the runway extension, ridiculous



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,148 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    we need to rail this country, and fast, you ll find most other similar countries have far greater scale of rail, compared to ourselves, another major failing of governments, past and present, wouldnt be worrying about it though, as it wont happen, your kids will be the ones picking up the pieces though, so no long term damage there!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 138 ✭✭dan575283578


    There already is the limerick junction line though, why not improve this line for Waterford-Cork connections rather than spend billions on a new line,



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,148 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    its all the areas in between is the issue, we havent implemented a functioning rail network all over the country, we actually dismantled it over the century, which is now resulting in serious issues, causing serious economic and social dysfunctions, i.e. centralisation of economic activities, particularly around the dublin region, this in turn is causing serious strain on other critical infrastructure such as our energy, water infrastructures, housing etc etc etc

    …and the only way to deal with this serious transport deficit, is the private car, especially fossil fueled private cars, and no, we re not all gonna move lock stock over to ev's anytime soon!

    …and the fact, we re not gonna rail the country anytime soon, so fossil fueled cars it ll be!

    …and remember, some can actually work on the train, best of luck with doing that while driving a car, or god forbid, on a bus!

    …again, dont worry, this isnt gonna change anytime soon, as we re gonna keep effectively electing the same governments, over and over, as will be the case on the 29th….



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 151 ✭✭Dum_Dum_2


    When multinationals are scoping sites, they're not looking at how long it takes to get to Cork on the train.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,148 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    wanna bet! i know some that have and do, being able to efficiently move employees and stock around is a critical function of a business, hence why many prefer to locate near dublin and/or near the east coast, and less so elsewhere!

    ….again, by not having effective transport networks, including rail, outside of the east coast, this in turn is forcing businesses, not just mnc's, but also sme's, in which the majority of the workforce works, to locate so…..

    …but again, dont worry, this isnt gonna change!

    …if you re wondering where some of that 14 billion should be going, i.e. long term transport infrastructure, and not just being giving out like confetti!

    …but again, dont worry, it wont be!



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