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Irish rail fleet and infrastructure plans

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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,512 ✭✭✭p_haugh


    Posted this in the Dart+ Infastructure thread earlier, forgot this one was a thing!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 434 ✭✭Ireland trains


    https://www.nationaltransport.ie/wp-content/uploads/2024/10/NTA-Capital-Investment-Programme-2023-Final.pdf
    Page 74 onwards has a good summary of rail projects.

    No mention of Dart costal south on page 18, have they fully given up on it?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 285 ✭✭PlatformNine


    Looking through it seems that entire report is reflecting on their investments in 2023, and unfortunately I don't think there was much to report on for D+ coastal south. Honestly even throughout 2024 there hasn't been much to say, Though I am hoping we might get something before the end of the year.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,223 ✭✭✭Economics101


    This weekend there are very major disruptions: no rail services between Dublin and Dundalk, and no DART services north of Connolly. What major infrastructure work necessitates such a level of disrpution? Is it commissioning of ETCS? Apparently the work of installing the lineside balises has been done. I should have thought that more restriced night-time possessopns would be sufficient to do the job.

    The IE website is not very informative, to say the least.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,838 ✭✭✭✭Jamie2k9


    Various works, points renewal, overhead lines, ballast cleaning.



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  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 12,849 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cookiemunster


    Its a bank holiday weekend. There are works around the network requiring weekend closures nearly every bank holiday weekend.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,369 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    Tender issued on etenders this morning;

    CfT: 8736 Train Protection System ETCS Level 1-Trackside National Rollout

    European Dynamics - View CfT Workspace (etenders.gov.ie)

    From the PQQ document

    DESCRIPTION OF THE CONTRACT BEING PROCURED

    Iarnród Eireann’s existing train protection system, which is fitted to rolling stock operating over the network is facing obsolescence. The current systems include:

    Automatic Train Protection (ATP), and

    Continuous Automatic Warning System (CAWS).

    ATP is deployed on approx. 5% (99 track-km) of the IÉ network and is confined to the DART Electric Multiple Units (EMUs), which operate on the electrified route in the Dublin region between Greystones and Howth/Malahide. Where ATP is in operation the system automatically applies brakes if a driver fails to obey a restrictive signal aspect or a speed limit.

    A further c.42% (900 track-km) of the IÉ network is equipped with CAWS, which provides train drivers with an in-cab indication of signal aspects. All IÉ trains other than EMUs are equipped to work with CAWS, and this requires a driver approaching a restrictive signal aspect to acknowledge a warning.

    Both ATP and CAWS systems in use in IÉ network are classified, in EU interoperability terms, as Class B systems.

    In December 2021 the first fleet order for the new DART+ rolling stock was placed. This fleet will be equipped with an ETCS Class A system and will commence testing on the IE network in 2024. To facilitate the new fleet IÉ is fitting the section of track between Greystones and the Northern Ireland border with ETCS L1, in addition to test this area IÉ is fitting one 3 car DMU with ETCS L1.

    In June 2022 IÉ commenced the TPS National Rollout of an ETCS Level 1 system for Onboard and Trackside, both of which are separate projects and are not dependent on one another.

    The TPS National Rollout will provide a single, nationwide train protection system across all fleets and routes (except for freight-only lines). The proposed system will deliver the following functions - Speed supervision, Signal protection, Buffer protection, degraded operating modes, Shunting movement protection, Reverse movement protection, Roll away protection, Temporary Speed restriction warning messages. The Trackside NRO project will provide this functionality by deployment of an ETCS Level 1 TPS across the IÉ network (see the map and division of sections in table below).

    Phase No.

    Phase Description

    No. of Signals

    Length (km)

    1

    Cherryville Junction to Waterford

    101

    125

    2

    Maynooth to Sligo

    128

    192

    3

    Portarlington to Galway

    126

    145

    4

    Athlone to Westport / Ballina

    171

    167

    5

    Wicklow to Rosslare Europort

    80

    136

    6

    Mallow to Tralee

    114

    99

    7

    Limerick to Athenry

    81

    95

    8

    Limerick Junction to Limerick

    33

    35

    9

    Hazelhatch to Mallow

    190

    216

    Out of scope:

    • Drumcondra – Maynooth – M3 Parkway

    • Heuston - Hazelhatch

    • Cork - Cobh / Midleton

    • Limerick Junction – Waterford

    • Killonan Junction - Ballybrophy

    Also

    DURATION OF CONTRACT AND FORM OF CONTRACT

    The Contract the subject of this competition is a contract to upgrade the IÉ trackside network with ETCS Level 1 system providing inter alia Train Stop and Speed Supervision functionality. The expected completion date for all, is 2031. A Maintenance Contract will follow in line with the implementation plan, and it is expected to be for a duration of up to 20 years. Both contracts will be subject to the terms and conditions of the contract and at IE discretion.

    The form of Contract will be issued with the Invitation to Tender (ITT) at the ITT stage of this procurement process, to all Applicants who pre-qualify for the ITT stage of the process, under this PQQ, subject to IE’s decision (in its sole discretion) to proceed to the ITT stage of the competition. The type of contract will be formalised at the Tender Stage of this competition, but it is likely to be NEC 4 - Option C.

    The DART+ network and the Cork area are not part of the scope for obvious reasons. Limerick Junction – Waterford and the Ballybrophy line also not included. Phasing seems odd, I would have thought Cherryville Junction to Waterford would be bottom of the priorities list and that the Cork line would be a higher on the list.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 285 ✭✭PlatformNine


    The priority does surprise me as well. Though if all signalling upgrades are supposed to be completed by 2031, I suppose it doesn't make a large difference?

    Why would LJ-Waterford and Killonan Junc.-Ballybrophy be out of the scope of the signalling?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,730 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    They are still manually signalled.

    That would require a decision from government to invest significantly in both lines.



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 23,646 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    It isn't necessary a firm order, they aren't actually required to buy all the trains in the framework, they can decide to go ahead with each actual firm order in stages during the framework. The framework may included potential extra future trains that might not go ahead with, but probably will.

    A good example of how all this works is Double Decker city buses for BE/GAI/BE.

    The NTA had a framework for 600 ADL Enviro 400ER hybrid double decker buses over 6 years. Each year during the framework they would make a firm order for 100 buses to be delivered that year (the normal replacement level). They ordered 100 the first year, another 100 the second year, but after that they decided to cancel the rest of the framework and instead made a small order of just 40 additional buses.

    So out of the 600 bus framework just 240 were ordered and delivered.

    They have instead made a new framework for 800 fully EV buses from Wrights. The first couple 100 have been delivered by Wrights, we will see if the full 800 will be delivered.

    BTW The wording I think was more 100 buses were ordered from ADL up front, with an option for 500 extra over 5 years. They only went ahead with 140 of that option.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,612 ✭✭✭✭loyatemu


    Framework is basically a procurement mechanism that means you don't have to keep running tenders and drawing up new contracts every time you want to buy the same thing again. The carrot for the supplier is that there's usually an initial order built into the tender but everything after that is at the discretion of the buyer.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 285 ✭✭PlatformNine


    Ah okay. That does make me wish they would have higher priority for an upgrade, but I also understand why that is out of the scope for this tender. Though if the rest of the system is being upgraded to ETCS L1, does that mean we might see a push to bring these two sections up to the samer or a similar standard in the near future? Having them be manually signalled already feels a bit archaic, but would it start to look inadequate if the rest of the network has been upgraded to a modern signalling system?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,369 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    Could that a brand new terminus station is currently being build in Waterford have anything to do with doing Cherryville Junction to Waterford first? Seems very odd as the line which that line connects to will be last for ETCS which I would have thought would seriously limit the benefits.

    I wonder are they leaving Hazelhatch to Mallow to last in the hope that funding might be made able to combine new signalling with electricification of the line by the expected completion date?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 285 ✭✭PlatformNine


    Ah maybe. That could also explain why Galway-Portarlington is so high up on priority with Galway Ceannt being redeveloped? I agree that HH-Mallow being the last to be upgraded might limit the benefits, but Portarlington/Cherryville Junc.-HH is a short section relative to the rest of Heuston-Galway or Heuston-Waterford, so I think it shouldn't make a large difference.

    That also makes sense, I don't know what the timeline looks like for D+ SW construction, but it might mean they would be finishing around the same time?

    However all that said, even if a few of the routes are complete well before 2031, when would we see the ICR fleet start to use ETCS for passenger service? It sounds like only a single unit is currently equipped with ETCS for testing, so could it be a bit before we see it equipped on other ICR units?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,373 ✭✭✭goingnowhere


    Limerick - Limerick Junction & Mallow - Hazelhatch already have cab signalling fitted so the cost/risk benefit is lowest. The CRR is pushing for a TPS where there is no current TPS at all, i.e the mini CTC single track routes.

    Nenagh and Waterford Rosslare is legacy ETS but within that the old fashioned must have the correct token to move is extremely effective and the low traffic density is a factor, i.e what odds you will hit something



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,838 ✭✭✭✭Jamie2k9


    Will ETCS still require blocked sections on single lines?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,373 ✭✭✭goingnowhere


    ETCS L1 is an overlay on existing signalling so same block sections remain



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 161 ✭✭OisinCooke


    Aside from being an EU mandated upgrade, what actual benefits will ETCS have for the network? Higher capacity potential…?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,223 ✭✭✭Economics101


    Benefits? Safety for a start, especially on those parts of the network without real train protection, i.e outside the CAWS area. This is more important now as the network is carrying far more traffic. Second, as far as I am aware, the existing ATP on the DART lines is very basic and restrictive, as is evident from the very slow crawl when a DART train approaches a red signal.

    At present we have a mixture of protection systems, some of them 40 years old, which is prpbably a recipe for high maintenance costs and less than ideal reliability.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 285 ✭✭PlatformNine


    not necessarily a network benefit, but I think it could also mean future fleets can be more off-the-shelf. It might save time and money in the future when ordering new units?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,514 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    commonality of equipment, parts and software as well most probably.

    possibly allows for greater competition within the EU in terms of suppliers too.

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words, nobody has better words then me.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,830 ✭✭✭Glaceon


    In my opinion, CAWS was very much a product of the time that we were (to quote Mary Harney) “closer to Boston than Berlin”. It was developed by Westinghouse (of Pittsburgh) who had a facility in Tralee at the time. Moving to ETCS means that the equipment can be more easily sourced off the shelf, rather than having to do a custom build of an oddball system. Many of the single track lines were never equipped with CAWS either (the so-called mini-CTC lines), so ETCS should allow in-cab signalling to work on these lines.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,373 ✭✭✭goingnowhere


    Union Switch & Signal which was a devision of WABCO provided the signalling

    Its 1930's tech, it could support ATP like capabilities, it depends how the on how the train kit reacts to the codes transmitted, you could catch going through a red signal if you had a specific red code (by default no code is red)

    A little hidden CAWS info is originally there was a transponder system fitted, when you entered a CAWS area the train had to report its CAWS status and if it didn't you get a red signal. If you already have the kind of kit fitted, a hard stop for passing a red could be implemented

    226 in Carrick on Suir has its transponder fitted



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,110 ✭✭✭Citizen  Six


    Good video here from the RTE Archives to show how CAWS works. Amazing that some of this equipment is still working, alongside modern ETCS equipment, in lineside cabins now.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,934 ✭✭✭Beta Ray Bill


    I know this is "Irish" rail fleet and plans. But I was reading about the British Class 66 "replacement" the Class 99. It was unveiled at Innotrans earlier this year. It's a Stadler Euro Dual loco.

    The interesting thing about this loco is that it comes in at a weight of 113 tones and comes with 6 Axles, so it could be able to run on Irish railways (given that the Original Class 66 is closely related to the the IE 201 Class and the axle load is 18.8T).

    Seems GBRF have ordered 30 of them, main desire being to move away from Diesel.

    If Ireland ever get serious about electrifying the main lines, these locos could be used with existing coaches without the need for a power car. although given the power output of these and their tractive effort it could be complete over kill.

    Launch video if anyone is interested.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 285 ✭✭PlatformNine


    Looking at some of the specs the class 99 might not be ideal as an all-purpose loco as IE seems to like so much. Mainly it just seems too slow (120km/h top speed) and it doesn't appear to be designed for passenger services. However, if they decide to use different locos for passenger and freight services (or if they shifted all pasenger services to MUs) I think the Class 99 would be a very good option.

    With their current approach I think something more like the Class 93(or other EuroLight locos as they should have a lower axle-load) would be a better option. Especially as the 93 seems to fit the tender for the Enterprise fleet, meaning it could be used for Enterprise, Dublin-Cork, other future improved IC services, and Freight as the current 201 Class is. That said, we don't know what options they are looking at, though hopefully we will find out soon. What they pick for Enterprise will likely have a massive effect on the future of IE rolling stock.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,349 ✭✭✭dowlingm


    6 axles, while allowing lower axle weights on heavy locomotives, are used more for freight and are rarely operated on high speed service - I think the longer trucks create more track wear around curves. Metra in Chicago acquired some refurbed 6 axle freight locos (SD70MACH) for hauling commuter trains and some US rail fans almost needed fainting couches.

    GO Transit in Toronto is to implement ETCS Level 2, but leaving provision for long blocks to allow permit non-equipped freights and intercity to operate through that territory. I assume that similar provision will be made to allow NIR and heritage train movements in the IE system implementation - I assume this project is not cross border?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,934 ✭✭✭Beta Ray Bill


    I'm guessing the class 99 is effectively just a configuration option of the Euro Dual (as opposed to some bespoke Euro Dual design), the Stadler website says that loco has a top speed of 160km/h. I'm sure it could be configured more to suit Irish Rail operations.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,223 ✭✭✭Economics101


    Looking at the way things are going all over Europe, I would imagine that passenger operations will become 100%MU, and in nearly all cases 100%EMU in the long run. In Ireland that will incluse Cork-Dublin-Belfast. So locomotives will be for freight and other non-passenger work, and in that case 120 kph should be sufficient.

    Even in a comprehensively electrified netweok, you will need limited battery power to cope with container terminals. (try lifting and stacking containers with 25kv OHLE all around!)



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 72,828 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Shunters - diesel these days but battery could be the future, and reversing a rake so that the container flats or pockets are out of OHLE but the loco isn't, are the standard ways of handling that in places that have proper rail freight volumes and OHLE



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