Grand Central Belfast......

circadian · 18-10-2024 06:07PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122607665#Comment_122607665

The Skeoge Road is in **** condition too, as are most of the roads in Derry. Stuck in a repair or upgrade limbo.

Disco24 · 19-10-2024 11:35AM

There is the capacity with a spare platform to do Heuston to city only but have never seen it being used.

OisinCooke · 19-10-2024 04:26PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122736681#Comment_122736681

It is used occasionally during peak hours to run a few Heuston to Connolly services but without capacity enhancements and the tram-priority measures mentioned above, it cannot be used more than the very few times it already is without taking service away from Tallaght and Saggart

Ideally with a second metro line running from Tallahht to Clongriffin, Red Line Luas services to Tallaght would cease/have a Luas shuttle or be converted to Metro between Tallaght and Belgrad. This would free up some capacity in the city for direct Heuston to Connolly trams.

Even with Luas Lucan through the south city and sharing track with Red Line trams between Blackhorse and Fatima, some trams could run from Tallaght or Saggart to the south city via the Lucan Line, again freeing up capacity for more Heuston to Connolly shuttles.

Beta Ray Bill · 21-10-2024 09:32AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122607109#Comment_122607109

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122607299#Comment_122607299

It's very well planned out. Horse before the Cart job… Build the Main Station and all the required platforms to future proof expansion which will come (Hourly Enterprise service is an example of that).

In stark contrast to that, we have Irish Rail adjust the timetable without building ANY of the critically required infra required to support that change.

Every Cat and Dog in the street knows the Northern line (In particular Connolly, Tara and Pearse) needs major upgrades.
It's gas to think that at one time (1970/80's) Pearse had 4 platforms and they ripped two of them out…

bk · 21-10-2024 11:28AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122743815#Comment_122743815

Eh, those of us interested in public transport know that the Northern line needs quad tracking, but most of the public and politicians don't. I think the issues with the timetabling that IR served is good to highlight to the public and politicians why quad tracking is needed.

I've noticed in conversations with family and friends that they don't really understand the concept that rail lines can reach a maximum capacity just like roads can. They seem to think you can just add extra trains to an existing track, they don't really seem to understand the limitations IME. Just because the trains aren't literally bumper to bumper like cars on the M50, they think there is plenty of capacity.

A lot of rail lines in Ireland are single track never mind double track, so concepts like quad tracking and separating out different types of services, with different speeds and service patterns are pretty new concepts for many people.

Hell even on this forum, you have posters who should know better, who will argue it is okay to mix long distance DMU's in with DART's on the Southern line or who will argue for mixing intercity trains into a future DART Underground service!

Beta Ray Bill · 21-10-2024 11:56AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122744242#Comment_122744242

Quad tracking and platforms at Connolly I'd argue, Connolly is literally at capacity during rush hour, Fairview to Connolly is painstakingly slow.

You'd think there would have been a plan back in 2018/19 when planning permission for Belfast Central was approved that they'd have gotten the ball rolling on CPO'ing the land north of Connolly and doing something about the awful looking listed building…. but no, that would have made to much sense.

You don't even need to quad-track the entire line, just the stations. Hell, even a third line would do. If they installed points with a moving frog, trains wouldn't even need to slow down.

techman1 · 21-10-2024 12:00PM

It's gas to think that at one time (1970/80's) Pearse had 4 platforms and they ripped two of them out…

What was their reasoning for doing that, what did they build that required them to remove the 2 platforms?

PlatformNine · 21-10-2024 12:05PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122743815#Comment_122743815

I think pearse had 5 platforms. And I believe two were removed for the new Pearse street entrance, as the stairs are rougly where they would have been, the 5th (and I think platform 1?) is where the parking lot is now.

I do wish one had been kept around, but my understanding is that all three were very short bay platforms that weren't suitable for modern services. I can't find information about lengths, but I can't imagine the platforms could fit more than a 4-car Commuter or 3-car ICR unit. Platforms that short in dublin are still used, Connolly and Heuston platforms 1 I believe are used regularly, and Bray platform 3 I have used for Rosslare services when there is track works past bray. However I am not sure if its a good investment today to build new platforms that are only suitable for shorter trains

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122744359#Comment_122744359

I think two (2 and 5? the two next to the current platforms) were removed for stairs and the Pearse street entrance. The southern most platform (1?) seems to be where a parking lot is now.

L1011 · 21-10-2024 01:05PM

They were all south facing and not much use for what they'd be needed for now, though?

Beta Ray Bill · 21-10-2024 01:56PM

@L1011 @PlatformNine

Your points are valid. However it's import to remember that during the 90's when they were removed, Pearse St was a dump and there wasn't a whole lot around there.

The platforms were not all that long, that's correct, but they could have been improved, and run straight through. as per below.

You can see where the platforms used to be based on the points on the bottom right.

There has been to much development around trinity now to make this possible.

It's the same mistake again and again and again.

L1011 · 21-10-2024 01:59PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122745009#Comment_122745009

That would have removed the entire concourse area upstairs, for which there isn't (and wasn't) space to replace

Beta Ray Bill · 21-10-2024 02:14PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122745026#Comment_122745026

Not so sure, Clongriffin with a 4th track included is 34M wide approx. Pearse is about 30M.
You'd need to remove the shops upstairs, move the ticketing system to downstairs and move the lifts and stairs to the absolute end of the platforms, take a metre off each side of the platform. Given the distance between platform 6 and 7 at Connolly is at a mini 4.3M, this (4 platforms) could be doable. 3 platforms is definitely doable

Each track needs 3.2M right? so 12.8M for 4, that leaves about 8.5 for each of the 2 platforms.

That being said there could be structural work required underneath.

In relation to the concourse area, I think that mattered when it was an ETOL stop, but not so much anymore, and even if it did they have all that space beside Tesco now.

breezy1985 · 21-10-2024 02:22PM

I don't think what was done to Pearse 30+ years ago is an accurate reflection on Irish Rail now. Saying that NI just built Grand Central and we ripped up tracks 50 years ago is a bullsht comparison.

Connolly is a sht show and not easily fixed but there are plans in place for Heuston added to that Galway, Limerick and Waterford are all upgraded or under construction. Cork are actively developing their commuter service and Limerick have stations in the pipeline. We also just extended the Dublin commuter services out as far as Portlaoise.

I think people are getting a little fooled by NI just because they called the station "Grand Central"

Beta Ray Bill · 21-10-2024 02:48PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122745133#Comment_122745133

Fair point about 30 years ago. But even then it was a little short sighted, the country was a wash with money back then don't forget (Well that imaginary Celtic tiger money anyway)

Connolly can be fixed if they just CPO the land and say to hell with listed building crap. I think the problem is that no one wants to take it on. Like whose job is it to take that on?

Dept Transport? CIE? Irish Rail? DCC? Some Government Level TD? TFI?

Just needs someone to grab it force it through. The longer its left the worse it's gonna be.

PlatformNine · 21-10-2024 04:47PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122744695#Comment_122744695

They could still have been useful for terminating southern services during peak hours. And now with D+ looking to eventually increase capacity past Greystones, it would have been nice to have a south facing bay platform to avoid congestion with through services.

Obviously it is not as good as a Connolly terminating service, but in theory the a Pearse bay platform terminating service would be in addition to existing Connolly services.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122745009#Comment_122745009

At that rate you might as well tear down and completely rebuild Pearse. I don't think that is or ever was physically possible with the station layout, I don't think either the Westland row or Pearse street entrance would be accessible, nevermind the development around Pearse preventing it. Even with rebuilding the station it might not be possible.

It might sound counter-intuitive, but removing the two additional platforms added capacity to Pearse because it increased the rate at which people can enter/exit the station, and allowed the station to have two large platforms. Yes with those changes we would have additional capacity for trains, but it wouldn't have the capacity for people. The passenger capacity would be heavily limited by the station only having two small island platforms, that can only be accessed by one maybe two narrow stair cases and a lift for each platform.

That said the far south platform which is actually even further south than the siding and was under the smaller roof, might still be possible as a half length bay platform. Though the siding would need to be removed.

Beta Ray Bill · 22-10-2024 08:46AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122745783#Comment_122745783

If you tore it down you'd have no trains for months (years?). Not feasible really.

Tara Street does fine with even more narrow platforms. I think having a large waiting area on platforms is thing from a bygone era. Pearse St is not longer a Hub/End of the line station, it is mostly served by DARTs and local(sih) commuter services. IE it's not the same type of station that Heuston, Grand Central or Connolly is.

8.5M Platform is plenty wide enough:

KrisW1001 · 22-10-2024 10:01AM

Central platforms are generally more space efficient than side platforms. Note how the side platform to lower-right of your image is about 5m wide.

PlatformNine · 22-10-2024 11:19AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122747844#Comment_122747844

Yes thats my point. Additional through platforms at Pearse isn't feasible.

It may not be a hub or terminal station, but it is still one of the busiest stations in country second only to Connolly, and Tara while busy is 4th. I completely disagree, boarding passengers don't magically appear after passengers have stepped off their trains and exited the platforms. The majority of people boarding a train are probably going to be there for at least a minute or two before their train arrives. So while you might not need a proper waiting area, you need physical space for people to stand while waiting for their train. You also need room for people to move around to platform while passengers are exiting and boarding the train at the platform.

And I would disagree that Tara is fine with its platforms, rather it is managing its capacity, but its barely doing so. I have rarely had to use Tara street station during peak hours, but everytime I do it's platforms are CRAMPED and are an incident waiting to happen. I have mostly used it off-peak, and even still the southbound platform is typically a mess.

And yes while an 8-9m platform is a decent size and could handle the number of people that use Pearse, even at the widest points you likely won't be getting that much. And even if you can somehow find the space 8.5m platforms, it will come at the cost of bottle necked entrances and exits to the station. Which again comes back to it defeats the purpose of having additional capacity for trains because you loose capacity for passengers.

Beta Ray Bill · 22-10-2024 12:01PM

And yes while an 8-9m platform is a decent size and could handle the number of people that use Pearse, even at the widest points you likely won't be getting that much

It's 28M wide on the interior side of the wall.

You need a minimum width of 6.8 between platforms.

You need 4 tracks so that's a total 13.6M

28M - 13.6M is 14.4M which means 7.2M Platform not 8.5M.
But that's not min/maxing it, I'm sure they could squeeze the rail lines closer to the outer wall. And the 2 inner tracks could be squeezed closer together.

In relation to the stairs. The one that's there at the moment is only 2M wide. (and the Escalators are about 4M wide)

There is definitely space to do it.

Having 4 platforms are Pease would relieve pressure on Connolly as you could run some trains straight through Connolly and Tara without stopping and terminate them at Pearse.

goingnowhere · 22-10-2024 02:18PM

Fantasy, you have to get the tracks over Westland Row and across the back of TCD.

It was looked at in the past to get 3 tracks but with the new sports hall and CRANN building you can't now, the focus then moved on possibly branching off at Grand Canal Dock to the Docklands (aka Dublin Central idea) and then talk moved to DART underground.

The dead end platforms were short, only the old platform 5 was usable and was used by DART services every now and then

Beta Ray Bill · 23-10-2024 08:44AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122749510#Comment_122749510

Exactly

It's incredible that permission was granted for the sports building given the issues with the surrounding infra. A classic case of bad planning.

goingnowhere · 23-10-2024 11:45AM

Plan of record at the time that was built was DART underground which has been on the books since 2001, which is really a updated version of the 1975 DRRTS plans

The reality is unless you could 3/4 track the loop line it doesn't matter how many platforms you have at Pearse

Idbatterim · 09-12-2024 10:00AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122729815#Comment_122729815

Eh... FFG?

Zebra3 · 09-12-2024 10:03AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122938800#Comment_122938800

Monday morning banter?

KrisW1001 · 09-12-2024 12:17PM

Off topic here, but FF is centre left on public spending and finances, but slightly right on transport (overall), FG is centre-right on budgetary matters, but takes a solid left-of-centre stance on social inclusion issues and transportation. Both parties are "left of centre" on environmental policy, but right on housing. Greens were left on all these areas, so the FF/FG/Greens government just gone was in every way a left-leaning government.

We have only one rightwing party in this country: Independent Ireland. People who label FG as "Tories" don't know much about either FG or the UK Conservative party, or are lazily trying to use UK politics as a model for our very different political system.

When it comes to transport policy (the relevant bit for this discussion), FG is aligned with the Labour, Greens and SocDems in having a strong PT policy that they talk about and try to implement. FF tends to go whichever way the wind is blowing, which often puts it in the "Cars First" camp, but can also lead to it supporting PT. SF has a similar Transport policy to FF, as they say as little as possible about the topic unless they already know know the public mood.

CrabRevolution · 09-12-2024 07:30PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122939241#Comment_122939241

In Private Eye they've a section giving an overview of the political situation in a selection of countries other than the UK. The authors names are never given but the article is written as though its from a citizen of that country. I used to think they were informative pieces but after the Irish edition described FG and FF as "Ireland's two Tory parties" I find it hard to take them seriously anymore.

Pete_Cavan · 10-12-2024 06:30AM

If looking to increase city centre platform capacity, I'd be looking at Tara rather than Pearse. With the Metrolink connection, Tara would be far enough north for some southern services (I'm thinking future Wicklow town trains), avoiding the need to cross the LLB.

With the plaza to be created by the Tara Metrolink station, there will be some space to the west of the station. It should be possible to get a relatively short (c.100m) south-facing terminus between island platforms and the through-running tracks on the outside. It would require a total rebuild of the station, but that is needed anyway. Apart from looking like a slatted shed, it is also like a cattle mart inside. With Metrolink and all the interchanging which will happen there, something major needs to be done.

Grand Central Belfast......

Comments