Grand Central Belfast......

Grandeeod

…..Dublin is a joke. We could have had a similar set up at Spencer Dock many years ago. World class. State of the art etc. etc. But we get Hueston, Connolly, Bus Aras and a Tram connection. Just imagine a river facing Bus and Train Station at Spencer Dock serving the nation with a Meytro underneath. We got office blocks and expensive apartments instead. We could have had both too.

Zebra3

Wouldn’t look at Belfast with regard to issues in Dublin.

Seems like a scandalous waste of money for what they’re getting in return.

Grandeeod

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122607109#Comment_122607109

Its a hub. Its future proofed. Despite the tiny rail network up there, now its preppeed for any expansion which may not happen anyway. Historically Central Station lead to the cross river connection that opened up more of the tiny rail network. Even the Europa bus station and the reopening of the former Great Victoria station route helped. Far ahead of Dublin while not perfect.

In Dublin terms we continue to struggle with connectivity and a similar build in Dublin would have offered a far greater benefit. We had the money and we had the sites. I'm not comparing the two cities and issues I'm comparing what Belfast has dome with this hub and Dublin hasn't. Had we done something similar with Spencer Dock, it would have been a game changer. I went through the entire Spencer Dock plan and consultation process many moons ago and I saw the decit, disregard and lies that went on. It was a massive missed opportunity. To this day we are still reinventing the wheel. Sure even Temple Bar was proposed as a hub back in the early 70s. Dublin needs it more than Belfast anyway.

BlueSkyDreams

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122607217#Comment_122607217

And the Greater Dublin Area has a larger population than the whole of Northern Ireland.

Metro North seems to be the only game in town in Dublin that doesnt involve a bus.

Predictions for Metro North to be live? If its operational within 20 years I would be amazed. Its a shame we cant outsource it to another country to build.

The sad consequence is that Dublin will limit its own (and therefore the nations) economic growth, through lack of investment in infrastructure and housing.

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122607217#Comment_122607217

Just 200 bike spaces up in Grand Central is pretty pathetic and they aren't even open yet!

Spencer Dock isn't that useful without DART Underground and even then it still wouldn't be taking Intercity trains from the Western lines, so wouldn't really be some central station that you seem to be suggesting.

While it is a bit disjointed, Dublin's public transport and rail network is overall far superior to Belfast.

Zebra3

All that money spunked away on Belfast while the rest of the north cries out for PT.

How is the track between Derry and Coleraine?

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122607225#Comment_122607225

Never cause it doesn't exist anymore.

Anyway if we built this grand station in Spencer Dock how exactly are all the trains from Heuston and Connolly supposed to get there?

NIMAN

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122607299#Comment_122607299

Us Northerners are used to this.

Belfast gets hundreds of millions spent on it, usually without much delay.

Derry, the 2nd city, waited 20 years to get the Skeoge Link road built, and I think the 4 lane dual carriageway from Fort George Pennyburn out to the border at Bridgend is something like a decade behind schedule.

The rest of NI, especially the NW, get the crumbs from the table.

Consonata

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122607251#Comment_122607251

Frees up a ton of Capacity for Connolly, is a much larger site open for expansion, and much more useful than Heuston for getting folk somewhat close to where they need to go

ArcadiaJunction

I have used Grand Central twice now (for buses) and it is a magnificent facility. No complaints at all.

Grandeeod

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122642958#Comment_122642958

While the Spencer dock idea is dead and buried one only has to read some of the narrow minded and negative responses here. It's a couldn't have been done attitude. Temple bar was the first missed opportunity for a transport hub. Spencer dock was the second. Belfast Grand Central is the kind of thing Dublin needs.

OisinCooke

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122715287#Comment_122715287

Since is Spencer Dock dead and buried…? As far as aware, it’s part of the DART+ West RO and as a result will be carried out as part of it. Yes it ain’t nearly be as spectacular as Grand Central (which, let’s be real, while it seems like a stunning station and useful Intercity hub, the lack of Glider link and through-running Translink services make it not as good a city centre station as it should be…), but there will be a direct Luas-DART Interchange and it is likely that a range of DART, Outer Suburban and Intercity trains will converge here, with the possibility of a link to a DART Underground station also. Not a bad station in my books (that is, if I’m correct - and I hope I am - in saying it’s not dead and buried…!)

Consonata

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122716635#Comment_122716635

Realistically they should consider building a new bus station there in the grounds infront of it. Busaras isn't really fit for purpose at the moment, and it would be nice to have a proper bus station for city buses, not just intercity. The amount of buses idling on Aston Quay at the moment is very bad.

The J Stands for Jay

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058368636/grand-central-belfast

Don't forget that the tram connection mostly doesn't serve Connolly

The J Stands for Jay

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122607299#Comment_122607299

It's still there, which is an achievement in the face of attempts to get rid of it

Grandeeod

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122716635#Comment_122716635

I wasn't talking about the tiny existing Docklands station in Spencer Dock north. I was talking about the potential siting of a large rail and bus hub combining all of the Spencer dock site. Its dead and buried because half of it is already built on.

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122719693#Comment_122719693

But no such grand central station has ever been proposed at Spencer Dock!

KrisW1001

Yes. The whole point of Belfast Grand Central was to create a bus and rail hub in the city. Putting a bus station in a location like Spencer Dock, with such limited road capacity would be stupid, and it would go against decades of trying to reduce heavy vehicles in the docks. I can't see the connection either, except maybe that both are new rail stations?

(I think Busáras was strangely sited too: apart from services for the north, buses have to drive through the core of Dublin City to reach it.. but at least Busáras has the excuse of being built in an era when planners thought that motorways would plough through city centres, and so eventually it would be right on a major road)

Grandeeod

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122720340#Comment_122720340

I never said there was. Read the OP agin. I was simply comparing Belfast Grand Central to the possibility of what Dublin could have done. The site was state owned and brownfield. The area in general was ripe for transition to a transport hub with sipporting road networks. The port tunnel was only under construction. I'm not using a crayon dream as the possibility is well gone. Look at it in the context of 25 years ago. What you don't seem to know is that I and a few others did propose it to the SDDC (a combo of Treasury holdings and CIE) as far back as 2004. But even by that stage it was too late. We walked the sight and the potential was amazing. The current Docklands station was originally planned for Spencer Dock south making a superiour connection to a planned Luas, but got dumped into the side of the Spencer Dock north site. This is over 20 years ago. A totally different landscape.

You admit that Dublins transport network is disjointed. What would you do on a budget, because it will always be on a budget. Metro and DU are as close to happening as we are as close to Jupiter for a tourist destination.

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122727244#Comment_122727244

Ah, thanks, I was wondering if I had missed some historical plans.

I totally agree that Irish Rails management of their property holdings is very poor. I’d prefer if they were more like the Tokyo rail company, who build new high quality rail stations and then build offices/shops/apartments offer them, all properly integrated, it all stays under the companies ownership as landlords. It has been successful that the company is highly profitable and its rail service requires no subsidy from the government.

Certainly Docklands station being at Spencer Dock would have been far preferable 20 years ago and hopefully we will eventually get that under DART+

My confusion stems from you calling it a Grand Central station type location, while a better station there would be very welcome, I don’t think you could really call it that, it wouldn’t be anything like a centralised transport hub. I don’t think the site really has that potential and it wouldn’t really solve any of the issues of the disjointed rail network.

Even if you had a nicer station there, it wouldn’t do anything to solve the bottle neck of the loop line bridge, most intercity trains would still terminate at Heuston Station, you’d still have the issue of the capacity of the double tracked Northern line.

I also don’t think it is much use as a location for bus and coach services. It is a bit out of the way for that. I use to hate when GoBus operated out of Busaras. Coaches operating on the quays near OCS is so much better, far more central and handy IMO. Of course it is very handy as a location for coach parking, but limited use for passenger services. Basically what Kris says above, like Busaras it is on the wrong side of the city for most services.

Don’t get me wrong I’m very much in favour of the Spencer Dock station and even future use for DU. But I don’t really see it as a Grand Central type operation.

You admit that Dublins transport network is disjointed. What would you do on a budget, because it will always be on a budget. Metro and DU are as close to happening as we are as close to Jupiter for a tourist destination.

I mean I don’t agree, Metrolink and DART+ are definitely happening, yeah DU less likely, at least in our lifetime.

But as I said above, I don’t see how a Spencer Dock station on its own does anything to fix the disjointed nature.

The combination of DART+ and Metrolink will go a long way to make things far more connected and less disjointed. People coming in on the Western lines can get DART+ to the new Spencer Dock station or can switch to Metrolink at the new integrated Cross Guns station for the Airport/Swords/OCS/Stephens Green. I suspect it will become one of the busiest stations in the city.

Extend Metrolink North of Swords to meet the Northern line to complete the integration.

Sure it isn’t a single grand central type station, but you don’t necessarily need that, a couple of well integrated and well connected stations can work well too and is how many cities do it.

AngryLips

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122720658#Comment_122720658

Spencer dock is two minutes from the port tunnel and so the M50 though…?

Thunder87

The quays between the East Link and Spencer Dock are empty most of the day and there's probably enough space for segregated bus lanes all the way to the Port Tunnel, there's plenty of road capacity to develop a proper transport hub.

The current plan for Spencer Dock is just a cheap cop out to relieve Connolly, just shift the existing "badly located" station a couple of hundred metres around the corner and call it a day.

KrisW1001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122728050#Comment_122728050

Spencer Dock to Red Cow is 25 minutes and 15 km longer via M50 than it is to go through the city. HGVs heading west and south only use the tunnel because they're forced to do so by law.

Walk around outside Spencer Dock station. It's all narrow streets and right-angle turns, very unfriendly to large coaches, plus Mayor Street itself is shared with a Luas line. And where would you park the 20 to 30 coaches that would be standing at such a terminal?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058368636/grand-central-belfast

Belfast has a lot of wasteland in and around the city center that Dublin doesn't have (dont say Dublin docklands as its proven the world over the train station hubs not in good city centre locations are poor ideas). That and the Westminister money flow made the Belfast station (20 acres plus the rail lines leading into it) very possible.

Not saying its right that Dublin has a mess but its a bit simple to compare Dublin to Belfast.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122637819#Comment_122637819

Connolly's major capacity problem is the lines.

What magic free lines would Spencer Dock run on ?

Thread is hilarious. OP has no interest is discussing the title and is just using it for a bit of self hating Irish style bashing.

p_haugh

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122728092#Comment_122728092

There is the existing coach yard beside the docklands station that could be utilised as part of a overall bigger Bus Station project. Although I'm not 100% if that's planned on being kept when Spencer Dock station is built (it could be moved onto the Docklands Station site once that closes)

techman1

Just 200 bike spaces up in Grand Central is pretty pathetic and they aren't even open yet!

SStill It's way better than 450K bike shed our own geniuses in the OPW erected at leinster House

techman1

but at least Busáras has the excuse of being built in an era when planners thought that motorways would plough through city centres, and so eventually it would be right on a major road)

That's what happened in Eastern Europe under the communists, they thought they were all progressive by bulldozing big roads for traffic right through the historic centre of European cities in the 50s and 60s. (They also wanted them for their big may day parades) also concreted over beautiful central parks for car parking, thankfully some of this has been reversed. The communists were a great bunch of lads alright

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122728251#Comment_122728251

Same thing started happening in London. Luckily they only got so far before the madness was stopped.

The city would have been a car only ground floor with walkways for the pedestrians. The Westway, Barbican and Southbank were the parts that actually got built and you can see from the Barbican that it would have been an absolute joke to live in.

bk

I remember watching a presentation by a DCC road engineer where he said in some ways we got lucky we were so broke in the 70"s because their were similar mad plans to bulldoze through Dublin City to build motorways through the heart of the city, but we couldn't afford it. Of course the wide streets commission had already done a lot of damage, but that woudl have taken it to the next level!

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122728220#Comment_122728220

I'd rather the 5,000 planned for Heuston Station. I've long said the OPW are complete idiots who time and time again do everything they can to block the development of public transport and active travel, see Phoenix Park.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122728206#Comment_122728206

Yes, a very welcome and badly needed facility. Though I don't know why they weren't using it on days with big events on at Croke Park!

But I'm not sure it is really a good location for actual passenger services. Like if I'm getting the coach from Cork (or Galway, etc.) do I really want to pass Heuston, pass O'Connell Bridge and instead be dumped over at Spencer Dock!

Even on a coach from Belfast, I think I'd rather be brought to the stop by O'Connell Bridge then be dumped at Spencer Dock.

I could certainly see it as a good location for an extra stop on the above services, specially if DU ends up going in there, but I don't think the idea of it being a Grand Central type of location with it being the only stop is a great idea. Though now that I think about it, Custom House Quay / Geroges Quay are better, walking distance of OCB but also right next to Tara, with DART there, Metrolink there and a possible future DU station.

p_haugh

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122728518#Comment_122728518

This is quite an interesting read!

https://randall.ie/unfinished-dublin/

Like if I'm getting the coach from Cork (or Galway, etc.) do I really want to pass Heuston, pass O'Connell Bridge and instead be dumped over at Spencer Dock!

Ideally there'd be another station on the Heuston side of the city for services coming from that direction, along with a station in the Spencer dock area. Realistically one singular central location for a bus station isn't really achievable currently.

Zebra3

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122728251#Comment_122728251

And they also managed to build decent public transport.

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122728552#Comment_122728552

Yes, but then I don't want to be dumped in Heuston either!

It is pretty convenient being left off and getting on at the quays around OCB, very central (they usually stop at Heuston too). Of course it lacks official facilities, but being the city center, plenty of shops and cafes right next to them (and citylink actually has an office/waiting room!).

As we are largely getting rid of cars from the quays and already largely done so on OCS to College Green, you have a pretty solid bus and coach corridor going both east and west and north/south there, making for a pretty good level of connectivity. With less cars on the quays, there should be plenty of space for the buses and coaches.

Actually the more I think about it, the more uncertain I am that some Grand Central terminating station for trains and buses is actually such a great idea for "larger" cities. Sure, it can certainly work well for smaller cities like Belfast or Galway. But for larger cities, I wonder if multiple stations are a better idea, but with high quality transport corridors through the city center making interchange easy.

Or to put this another way, rather then have one terminating station which is the only stop that everything is aiming for. Have high quality transport corridors with multiple useful stops along the way. Like Metrolink, D+, DU and even the quays/OCS bus corridors.

techman1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122728772#Comment_122728772

Not necessarily so, most of Eastern Europe already had its own tram and public transport system before the communist era, budapest metro was started in 1896, warsaw didn't get a metro until 1995 after communism had ended. The communists loved concrete alright because they put it everywhere, alot of bad quality ballymun towers structures were built that's why communism was infamous for being grey and drab . Bucharest is probably the city that exemplifies the ultimate in communist building and "architecture "

Also a great example of ploughing a multi lane carriageway through the centre, with a viewing platform for the dictator and his communist cronies to view may day parades

Zebra3

We get it, you’ve a grudge.

Budapest had 4.4km of metro and then the socialists built two far longer lines.

You go for Bucharest, others go for Kiev.

No shortage of so-called capitalists ripping up public transport and putting up grey buildings.

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122729125#Comment_122729125

Ironically almost every km of railway line in Ireland was built by capitalists, as were the tram network! It was left leaning Irish government who nationalised it all, ripped up all the tram lines and closed many of the rail lines.

Honestly it sort of goes both ways.

Those countries in the Warsaw Pact likely would have done much better had they remained independent of the Russians. They were already doing quiet well before, with good tram networks, etc. Being trapped behind the iron curtain actually held them back.

Look at East Berlin versus West Berlin or look at the brilliant public transport and social housing in Vienna. This part of Europe was already pre-disposed towards good quality public transport and social housing.

BTW It is Kyiv, not Kiev and I don't think many Ukrainians would have much positive to say about Russians or the Soviet Union!

Zebra3

I never heard of any left leaning government in Ireland.

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122729815#Comment_122729815

Yes, because right wing governments are known for nationalising privately built transport infrastructure! 🙄

PlatformNine

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122728893#Comment_122728893

Actually the more I think about it, the more uncertain I am that some Grand Central terminating station for trains and buses is actually such a great idea for "larger" cities. Sure, it can certainly work well for smaller cities like Belfast or Galway. But for larger cities, I wonder if multiple stations are a better idea, but with high quality transport corridors through the city center making interchange easy.

Isn't that what Paris does with its terminal rail stations? Like gare du nord, gare de l'est, etc. It's the first example I can think of with that system, and considering they are some of the busiest stations in the world it does seem to work well for them.

That said it does feel like the target with Dublin is somewhat "IC Grand Central" for Heuston and "Commuter Grand Central" for Connolly. I understand that is happening more because of how our rail system is, but it does at least work for us. So I guess its a question of "is this sustainable as the country expands?" We at least will have 3 decently sized terminal stations in Dublin after Spencer Dock, so we will somewhat start to follow the "multiple termini" model even if it will be a bit of a secondary station to Connolly and Heuston.

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122729833#Comment_122729833

Oh totally, I don't think you need Intercity trains running through the city center, it is fine for them to terminate at Heuston.

What we are missing is the high quality mass transit (Metro/DART) linking these termini stations together and allowing people to quickly and easily get around the city, connect between stations, get to the airport, etc. Like if you arrive into one of the termini in Paris, you aren't stranded there, you can jump on a Metro or RER to get around the rest of the city, etc.

A new Spencer Dock station will be great, but it is really the rest of DART+, Metrolink, quad tracking, etc. that will make the real difference in making it easy to get into and around the city.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122729833#Comment_122729833

London does the same as Paris. The names are not as obvious but Waterloo is for SW, Charing Cross/London Bridge SE, Paddington W etc. Crossrail has blurred the lines a bit though.

The major coach station is Victoria coach which is actually a lot further of a walk from Victoria rail than Busarus is to Connolly. It's a bit of a run down disaster that really needs replacing.

And isn't Grand Central just a new building for 2 stations that were next door to each other anyway ?

riddlinrussell

Grand Central is a new building for one Station (Great Victoria Street) that was previously downsized to 3 platforms from it's original capacity, which was originally maybe 3/4 of the new stations capacity.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122730214#Comment_122730214

By 2 stations I also meant Europa coach station (if that was it's name)

PlatformNine

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122729977#Comment_122729977

I am really hoping TII work on short term and long term upgrades to allow the red line to get between Connolly and Heuston quicker. As well as IE working on some way to trasnfer passengers between Heuston and Heuston West, like a shuttle or more ideally an APM. I think that would help Heuston become more of a transport hub for IC and DART services, as at the moment I can't find anything about getting between the two stations, and it does seem to be a bit far for trasnfering by foot, especially since IC passengers will have bags.

loco_scolo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122731662#Comment_122731662

Simple improvements to light sequencing to give full priority to Luas would go a long way. Incredibly frustrating for the Luas to slow down approaching a junction, then stop for a few seconds (up to a few minutes) before proceeding again. If that happens 5 times, you're easily losing 2 minutes overall, minimum.

Regarding Heuston West - if the S2, N2 and H Spine buses started at Heuston West, you could have a 4-5 minute frequency connecting to Heuston Main.

Grandeeod

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122728195#Comment_122728195

Would you care to offer any evidence to back up what you have said about me?

Sam Russell

Mod: @Grandeeod and @breezy1985 - Can we cut scrapping before it starts.

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122729825#Comment_122729825

Richard Nixon formed Amtrak.

p_haugh

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122728893#Comment_122728893

True, cars being taken off the quays will help. I'm definitely not against having the stops right by O'Connell Street, however we should still be limiting services terminating on the quays.

Afaik, most of the DB services currently terminating on the likes of Eden/Aston Quay will be removed with Bus Connects changes, but the likes of Dublin Coach will still be terminating along Burgh Quay.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122732246#Comment_122732246

Do they also rest there once they terminate ?

p_haugh

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122732255#Comment_122732255

I believe so, yes. Departures on the 300/600 seems to be at least every 30 minutes, but I've definitely seen at least 2 coaches laying over