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Enoch Burke turns up to school again despite sacking - read OP before posting

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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31,923 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,779 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    He refused to use the prefred name just as much as he refused to use the requested pronouns.

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 18,330 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatFromHue


    I'm kind of jumping in and out of this thread so not fully following the whole conversation. It can also be easy for people for people to be discussing different aspects of the same subject. Using pronouns in the workplace, or using pronouns when it comes to accessing women's spaces, and using pronouns for convicted sex offenders are roughly the same topic but when you get into it can be very different

    Asking someone to respect your pronouns is a fuzzy area when it comes to adopt a belief. It's mostly inconsequential so easy to go along with but there are some consequences when it comes to women's rights and spaces eg sport. There's also the problem with the new hate speech law that's coming in where misgendering is something that can be deemed hateful. So if this comes in the situation changes from asking someone to respect your pronouns as a common courtesy to making them as there's a threat of prosecution if you don't.

    I'm fairly easy on the pronouns myself but there are exceptions where I won't use them. If a male has been convicted of a sexual or violent crime then their pronouns will always be he and him to me. In the UK there has been cases where a Judge has directed a victim of sexual assault to use she/her to the person who assaulted her, even though they were a man when they did it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,739 ✭✭✭eightieschewbaccy




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,786 ✭✭✭Ezeoul


    For the purpose of this thread, I am talking primarily about behaviour in the workplace. Enoch Burke is in prison because of his behaviour in his.

    There are other threads where the other aspects you wish to get into can be discussed. There is a mod warning against disussing them here.



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  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 10,855 Mod ✭✭✭✭Jim2007


    He is in prison for contempt of court and nothing else.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,786 ✭✭✭Ezeoul


    True.

    But his behaviour towards the then Principal of WHS at a work function is what led to the HC injunction he is in contempt of.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,713 ✭✭✭Acosta


    It can't be said enough what a disgrace to his profession Burke has been, to make a vulnerable minor a national story. Above all else, this is the single worst aspect of all of this. He failed the most basic level of care that you would expect from someone who has responsibility over children and teenagers. That the student wasn't even one of his pupils and someone he had no dealings with, made it even worse. He'll never teach again.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,779 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    That's just what got him fired. Plenty of people mouth off to their bosses without winding up in jail in the same way that plenty of people voice opposition to trans-identification without winding up in jail.

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,959 ✭✭✭✭aloyisious


    The wall he walked himself into is the judges who decided that they were not prepared to allow him behave towards them in the same way he behaved towards his Principal. He doesn't yet understand that they have a different POV to his disobedience and contempt.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,985 ✭✭✭political analyst


    It's bizarre that Enoch is still getting a salary while his appeal against his dismissal is yet to take place.

    Why doesn't the employment tribunal arrange for Enoch to make the appeal from the prison via video link, which happens in court cases all the time?

    The idea that hiring security guards would make Wilson's Hospital school feel like prison is ridiculous - the pupils wouldn't care.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,786 ✭✭✭Ezeoul


    I don't disagree. However not many do it in such a spectacular and very public fashion as EB chose to do!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,786 ✭✭✭Ezeoul


    Its not the school or the DAP holding it up. It's the fact that Enoch has a legal action against it proceeding that is still pending a hearing before the Court of Appeal.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 42,539 ✭✭✭✭Boggles


    The problem is as one Justice referenced and I am paraphrasing.

    You wouldn't be able to get 2 lawyers to agree on an interpretation of our contempt laws.

    The reality is though for Enoch, best case scenario is it will be years before it is legislated for if at all.

    There is a very real chance this could on for a decade or even longer.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,959 ✭✭✭✭aloyisious


    As an adjunct to the debate proper here, it's the criminal contempt section that caught my eye. If a judge taking a high court hearing rises during the hearing, I understand that the hearing, and therefor the court, is suspended until the judge returns to the bench.

    If a person in the general part of the court kicks up a fuss and make accusations against the judge, all the judge has to do is stand up and leave, thereby suspending the court. No contempt of court is declared against the person/s who kicked up the fuss or made accusations about the judge as the court was not sitting to allow the judge hear the shouting.

    Throughout a good few of the hearings related to the person centred wholly in our debate, several people disrupted the court hearings on several occasions yet no criminal contempt charges were laid against them despite An GS clearing the court of disruptors on one noted occasions.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,196 ✭✭✭✭Thargor


    Havent been following this for a long time sorry but is it the case that he can keep his salary as long as he's locked up? As in the employment tribunal or whatever literally cant go ahead? Or is the process to sack him while he's still inside underway?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,959 ✭✭✭✭aloyisious


    It seems that he hasn't exhausted his law [as in civil-criminal] appeal process yet and the hearing at the other tribunal about his employment situation has to take second place until then.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,196 ✭✭✭✭Thargor




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,959 ✭✭✭✭aloyisious


    Ezeoul seems to have a better handle on appearance dates for EB at both. I'll let Ezeoul give you that.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 42,539 ✭✭✭✭Boggles


    He is objecting to a member of the panel who is a union nominee for complete BS reasons.

    It is beyond frivolous.

    As far as I know the school do not have to keep paying or at least processing his wages, he has been fired, he isn't on admin leave or been suspended.

    Now I can see why they are.

    The reality is at this stage once the High Court makes some sort of ruling the Appeals Panel don't have to go through the appeal and dismiss it outright.

    But this guy has been given so much rope at this stage, they will probably keep bending over backwards for him.



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  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 26,016 Mod ✭✭✭✭CramCycle


    All credit to the school, such details of the minor never became widely known or published. If nothing else, it shows that bar Enoch, it would appear to be a well run, professional, school.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,786 ✭✭✭Ezeoul


    No dates, though as soon as it appears on the Court Service Legal Diary, I'll post it here.

    No idea what the hold up is.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,526 ✭✭✭Oscar_Madison
    #MEGA MAKE EUROPE GREAT AGAIN


    Would it be possible to do a PhD in Mountjoy? It would be a great way to pass the time - maybe some research into the education background of criminals or something like that - you’d have an instant audience to survey. Getting paid whilst researching - there are worse ways to spend your time- and given no distractions you’d probably box off the PhD in record time



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 26,016 Mod ✭✭✭✭CramCycle


    You would have to have an institution willing to take you on as a student, a supervisor and so on. In theory it makes sense but for Enoch, I don't think any Irish university would touch him. Aside from that, he would have to pay student fees as presumably there is no stipend as I can't see a funding body touching him either.

    So for a normal inmate, yes, and it would provide both an interesting resource for the right study and a route to rehabilitation but for Enoch, I can't see it even being feasible.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 684 ✭✭✭TheWonderLlama




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,779 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    Hindsight, as they say…

    He is actually said to have been a very good teacher before he decided to lose the plot.

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,222 ✭✭✭✭Arghus


    He's got a YouTube channel which is solely focused on German lessons, if people have never seen it. If you didn't know anything else about him - you'd think he comes across well:



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,245 ✭✭✭aero2k


    Agreed, and it's clear that that the principal was equally as unimpressed with his behaviour as the judges, hence him getting fired.

    He might actually understand that both the Principal and the judges have a different POV, but he either doesn't care or alternatively thinks he can use that to somehow help his narrative of being a man persecuted for his beliefs, rather than for his obnoxious and unacceptable behaviour.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,245 ✭✭✭aero2k


    I would have preferred if there was a way to put his salary into an escrow account until all of the employment-related stuff was finalised. Assuming his termination is confirmed, he really should have to give back any earnings received since the original date of termination.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,245 ✭✭✭aero2k


    I think no matter what dates are announced, it doesn't help in estimating when the whole thing will be sorted out. The Burke family's commitment to disrupting legal proceedings means every court appearance gives rise to an opportunity to generate further court appearances.



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