DART+ (DART Expansion)

Cork will start as a battery operation if it goes that way so will be Alstom units, but likely will see 29000 units first.

The first batch is 13 BEMU and 6 EMU, the 6 EMU to ensure the DART can run all services at full length, it was also sized as a 1:1 replacement for the 1984 fleet to ensure a fallback position if the DART+ project imploded

The tentative order for 20 sets under discussion now will likely be a 20 EMU order, battery sets cost more and the weight being carried around is significant so if you don't need it don't carry it. That leaves 31 BEMU to cover Dublin Drogheda and the Wicklow hourly, there are 29 29k sets for comparison

Maynooth line is off limits to BEMU due lack of ETCS which is tied to the DART+ West, can't use Hazelhatch either until DART+ South West signalling is done. Cork is the only location with confirm ETCS installation contracts in place

The decision has been taken NOT to fit the 1984 fleet with ETCS so they are stuck to the existing DART route only and will be replaced as soon as possible.

Fair to say you know exactly what you're talking about.

Between this forum and articles in Irishcycle.com it sounds like there has been a bit of flipflopping between different parts of Irish Rail and what to do with the original 8100, and notwithstanding above about them being replaced as soon as possible, has it been said anywhere publicly that heavy maintenance, and replacement of parts etc. of the original DART fleet is not going to be carried out?

Maybe it is an abundance of caution/ fear, but it feels a little like if the 1st new fleet is accepted into service, and the original DART fleet is scrapped ASAP, and then there is some problem with the 2nd and 3rd new fleet order - well then the rest of the DART project could be held up, and/ or some problem turns up with the 1st new fleet aswell, then things could become chaotic. It also seems that delays of 2-4 years are not totally uncommon on the continent for new train fleets and/ or fleet-wide problems turning up in service.

As for the costs, I think the 2019 Irish Rail report on the idea of the refurb said that fitting of ETCS to the original DARTs would alone cost Euro 6m, which is alot (and who knows how much now)… though compared to the monies being spent on road/path refurbs nationwide that may not be so eye-watering, considering the numbers of users of the (DART) infrastructure.

Worst come to worst, if refurbs done, it could in a few years be a good few million spent on 'old rope' stock that is no longer needed, or used to justify not purchasing new stock (if there is an economic downturn), and may have problems storing them if surplus - with 'too many' trains… Though parts of the country with no/fewer trains or DART types might take issue with that concept.

Here is some of this cycle website's commentary on it, including noting ESB/Eirgrid problems at Drogheda (seems Eirgrid are facing challenges/ lots tasks in other parts of the country too) and looking at a battery farm backup there:

Irish Rail sent an early ‘Christmas present’; commuters expected see benefit from 2026 -- IrishCycle.com

On a lighter note, the individual seats on the new DARTs look a little thin, will they be comfy on a trip from Drogheda? I think I read somewhere that the new Blue (with yellow flecks) moquette is to tie-in with Public Transport bus and trams seats (not entirely convinced of that.. the DART green seats moquette is maybe boring, but distinctive enough and recognisable etc.).

On that note, this German 'rail influencer' shows as his no. 1 and no. 2 choices at the recent Innotrans 2024, as the (no.2) Stadler, RS Zero, and (no.1) Siemens, Vectrain… that both include in the seating options/ configurations, at least 3 types of bench/ flush surface double seats…. similar to the 8100 DART benches/ 'couches' that a lot of people seem partial to.

TOP 10 Züge der Zukunft - Innotrans 2024 mit BR 105, Coradia Max, RS Zero, ARS, Vectrain u.v.m. (youtube.com)

PS. the German to English auto-subtitles tell me he gives the Stadler bench seats a couple of thumbs up for their comfort including continuous headrest.

IE has always been very public about the first orders of new rolling stock not being used to replace 8100s. Even as of the transport debate with Jim Meade on October 9th that remains the plan. What we have been told so far is that the 31 BEMU units(first two orders) arriving are to be used initially for Drogheda and after there are enough sets there, for Wicklow town. And those two services orders will be used to send 29Ks elsewhere until signalling and/or electrification is done so frequency can be increased before new DART units come in.

Based on the current timeline for new units it seems that the 8100s will be replaced by the 3rd or 4th orders. The 3rd actually should be for 20 units (more than likely EMUs but I don't think its confirmed) and ordered by the end of the year, operational by the start of 2029. Past the 4th order it might be get close the 50 year service life they have been granted permission for by the time the units are in service.

Also generally it seems that the 8100s are beyond refurbishment. They have spent a brilliant 40 years in service but they have been pushed for those 40 years. Even with the 10 years life extension it doesn't seem there will be refurbishment, just maintenance to keep them around until they are replaced. I also can't see IE wanting to spend 6m euro on them, I think they would rather put that money towards ordering units from the framework, or refurbishing fleets that still have time to see a second life. Personally I think If anything sees a second life it will likely be the 8500s, as with a good refurb I would hope they could see another 20 years, maybe more.

On another note, had it been confirmed how many bridges will need to be demolished for the electrification of the DART+ lines? Is there really no way in which the bridges, in many areas dating from the Victorian era, could be retained?

Yes I saw that, they have a lot of stuff there including buses, coaches and even part of an A320.

I never rode on the 8200 unfortunately and I assumed the issue was that they were few in number, considering the 8100s are still on the go being much older (albeit with the Siemens upgrade).

The 8100 seems to be the most reliable, I read somewhere they could possibly outlast the 8500s.

Each railway order goes in to detail on that.

If a bridge needs to be replaced, it needs to be replaced. A reliable, modern public transport system is vastly more important to society than maintaining one of hundreds of railway bridges.

This despite the consensus that the 8100 (after the upgrade) is the superior class from a reliability and ride-ability standpoint? I could see the 8500s phased out and the 8100 (perhaps with another upgrade) still operating into the mid-century alongside the new stock.

I think the life extension is until 2034, not 32, not that it makes a difference, I doubt they will even get that far. Either way, I think the life extension has already been approved? If it wasn't would they even still be allowed to operate on the rail lines? Or is approval for the life extension and CRR allowing them to be on the rail for 10 extra years different?

I would hope we could at least get a 40 year life out of the 8500s, they are decent EMUs after all. If anything I would hope with a good refurbishment we could get beyond 40, though I know thats a stretch.

At minimum they would need another refurbishment, if not a complete refit and rebuild from the ground up to get more than the life extension out of them. And at that rate they are likely better buying new sets, and that doesn't even cover upgrades that would be needed from changing technology like ETCS. They are good sets I won't deny that, but at the end of the day 40 going on 50 years of service, especially in a coastal area, takes its toll. And if they are looking to refurb any sets, the 8500s are decent sets that are 20 years younger.

The mindful bit has already happened. If it has to go, it has to go. Track will be lowered where possible instead.

8100 reliability has been poor for years. 8500 fleet is typical Japanese basic but super reliable, about factor of 10 difference in km per failure

Interestingly, the connecting link between the GSWR (Maynooth-Drumcondra) and MGWR (Kildare-Grand Canal) rail lines at Glasnevin is included in the design drawings for the MetroLink Railway Order. This link was not shown in the drawings for DART+. This short segment will allow trains from Maynooth or Heuston to use either of the lines heading towards Connolly/Docklands. Currently, only Heuston services can access the Royal Canal line.