Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

50HX · 14-10-2024 10:05PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122718397#Comment_122718397

Ah you know what I mean

He's out for 4-6 wks, he ain't getting back in time

Its a Monday after 2 interpro games, he could have covered a lot of diff angles re the Irish team

ionadnapóca · 16-10-2024 09:34AM

Last Friday, for the second time, Leo Cullen said “now that he [Frawley] wants to play at outhalf”, perhaps betraying a hint of weariness, or not. But Frawley’s versatility is a very handy commodity and there’s been plenty of investment in the Byrnes, Ross and Harry, who are fine outhalves. And then there’s also Sam Prendergast, shooting up on the rails. Cullen could have done without the pressure from Frawley and, one suspects, Andy Farrell.

https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/2024/10/15/top-outhalf-debate-rolls-on-despite-leinster-vs-munster-croke-park-clash/

There is fierce competition in Bleyendaal’s former position and he praised Frawley’s performance against Munster.

“We had periods when we were under pressure, but we also scored points. I think ‘Frawls’ is a good threat himself and it’s a real balance. You’ve got to be your own threat, you’ve got to make your own plays as a ‘10′ but you’ve also got to make everyone around you better players, and he’s doing a good job at the moment; kicking, direction, ball in hand. So, he had a pretty good outing.”

Despite being the one player to start all three games on the Emerging Ireland tour, Sam Prendergast is as real option to start against Connacht at The SPORTSGROUND next Saturday (kick-off 7.35pm).

https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/2024/10/15/tyler-bleyendaal-already-making-his-mark-at-leinster/

Tommybojangles · 16-10-2024 10:25AM

Just popping in to say isn't it great to have an OH debate again when 2 years ago it was looking like Ross, Carty or Billy Burns to take Sexton's place :D

I don't think Sam starts a game in the AIs, simply because Frawley is also new to this debate and I think we need to be getting him all the time we can at 10, so 2 games each for himself and Crowley. I've never been a big Crowley believer and I do fear we're a year or 2 away from or 2 best 10s both being with Leinster again and the inevitable trouble that causes.

Harry definitely hasn't had any luck but his current situation really shows how mad the hype was a few years ago (when you had people on here, and also Brian O Driscoll, comparing him to Ntamack and saying he should be thrown into the Ireland tam)

ionadnapóca · 16-10-2024 10:51AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122724655#Comment_122724655

It sure is!

In fairness to BOD I think the hype was justified with Harry mainly because of those alternatives you mentioned.

2021 Harry came off the bench v USA and Arg.

2024 was his next appearance! Sub v Ita and Sco in 6N.

I think its fair to say he only got those appearances because Ross was injured .

Although v Italy I'm pretty sure he got picked ahead of Frawley

…need to check that but that makes sense considering Frawley's rapid rise.

v Scot both Ross and Frawley were injured.

aloooof · 16-10-2024 11:41AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122724760#Comment_122724760

I think Frawley was injured when Harry got 6N time this year, no? Would need to check, but pretty sure.

ionadnapóca · 16-10-2024 12:57PM

not sure either. cant check because search function has gone 2sh1te on boards. again!

for Scot yes

but for Italy? I think Harry was just preferred over Frawley.

https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/2024/02/09/ireland-team-v-italy-andy-farrell-makes-six-changes-including-four-in-the-pack/

Jeremy Loughman, Tom O’Toole, Iain Henderson, Harry Byrne and Jordan Larmour are all promoted to the matchday squad as Ireland revert to a more conventional 5-3 split on the bench. Cian Healy, Conor Murray and Ciarán Frawley also drop out of the match-day squad.

ionadnapóca · 16-10-2024 01:03PM

The 24-year-old Byrne has edged out Ciaran Frawley to cover Crowley at out-half, as Ireland return to a five-three bench split this week. Byrne won his first two caps in 2021 with cameo roles against the USA and Argentina.

“With a six-two split, we all know Ciaran Frawley is ideal to cover off the bench, but not just cover off the bench but in his own right be able to start a game. I’m sure he’s going to be trying to prove a point within training to be able to do that,” acknowledged the Ireland coach.

“But having said that, Harry’s been great in training. He was fantastic, I thought, in his last outing for Leinster against Leicester, and he deserves a shot off the bench.

“When you’ve got somebody like Harry who could probably play 10 and maybe one other position at a push, it’s probably harsh enough to put him out of position at this stage in his international career, so that tends to shape whether it’s Ciaran or not really.

“I suppose (it’s) keeping the competition there with the 10s battling it out, and you’ve got to try and find another opportunity for people as well.”

https://www.irishrugby.ie/2024/02/10/its-a-hell-of-a-pack-and-a-good-team-at-that-farrell/

And now its 'Harry Who?'

leakyboots · 16-10-2024 09:34PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122724655#Comment_122724655

Someone not-to-be-named has a bit of (Cl)egg on their face declared after around 9 games that he was "far too good" for the league.

I think Crowley steering Munster to the URC, particularly given the way they won it and where… and Ireland to a Six Nations so early in his career is reason enough to believe. He's still only 24 so will make mistakes I'm sure but he's had a brilliant start to his career.

I'd agree about Frawley getting game-time, he should get minutes in green as he's taken his chance and impressed the coaches. Hopefully Leinster are going to back him at 10. It's still so early in his career in the position I don't know what to make of him yet. Clutch drop goals and penalties are only one part of an OHs game, but it's promising that he went for it and got it, mentality side of things seem to be good.

Let Prendergast have a go in the Sportsground and some big games in Europe and develop a bit or letting him take to the international field next month before we go anointing him anything would be my take.

Clo-Clo · 16-10-2024 09:59PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122727311#Comment_122727311

Frawley is 26 and at his peak, his early chances at 10 was back in 2019 and he didn't really light up the World. Hence why they moved him to 12/15. I wonder if H Byrne stayed fit on the NZ tour would he ever have moved back to 10 as he made that tour as a 12.

All is history of course now.

Leinster seem to be backing him at the moment at 10, but its early days and the big games in Europe is when he needs to perform. Last year at 10 in Europe he didnt when he started v Sale and v Stade. If he doesn't then Ross will in all probabilty come back in as I think Sam is a season away yet, but will probbaly get a start in Europe if possible

Clegg · 16-10-2024 10:33PM

I'm flattered you remember. Harry Byrne was a huge prospect in his first few seasons. Farrell was keen to have him in Ireland squads despite his lack of experience for a reason. It hasn't worked out for him yet mainly due to injuries.

He's essentially two years behind where he should be development wise. The season just gone was his best to date mainly because he actually actually stayed fit.

leakyboots · 16-10-2024 10:34PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122727516#Comment_122727516

How could I forget? 😍

AbusesToilets · 17-10-2024 02:56AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122727516#Comment_122727516

Really blame Leo for dropping him and putting Ross back in. Was a big mistake imo, and I think it had a big knock on his confidence.

RichieRich_89 · 17-10-2024 03:21AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122727877#Comment_122727877

I think in general it's good selection to stick with the player who's been playing and performing well if another player returns from injury and it's a close call between the two in terms of who gets selected.

I remember Leo Cullen himself started the first two 6N games one year with Donncha O'Callaghan absent through injury. As soon as O'Callaghan was available Kidney brought him straight back in even though Cullen had performed really quite well - stealing 6 lineouts as I recall across his two starts. I though that was questionable selection.

I got the sense that Schmidt would stick with the player who had come in for someone else who was injured if there wasn't too much between the players. Obviously if there's someone who's clearly the best in his position and one of your best players you put them back in, but otherwise it's good to back the player who's done what you've asked of them. I think the Harry Byrne/Ross Byrne question fell into this category last year. I think they should have backed Harry.

Former Former Former · 17-10-2024 09:28AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122727877#Comment_122727877

Meh, this is professional sport. Players get dropped, how you respond to it is a measure of your character and mental strength.

How many times did Kidney drop Sexton for ROG and he just used it as motivation to get even better? How many times has POM lost his Ireland spot and won it back again?

I've sympathy for H Byrne because of a lot of his setbacks have been out of his control, ultimately the only person who can fix that is him.

50HX · 17-10-2024 02:29PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122728186#Comment_122728186

Spot on

If you are good enough you'll find away, then the cream rises to the top.

Harry's biggest issue outside of injury was he didn't nail his chances when they came, limited during the sexton era but post sexton & particularly close of last season it didn't go well at all for him...ulster game case in point

Dubinusa · 17-10-2024 02:44PM

England have revealed the squad for the international series. I don't know what Borthwick is thinking. To me it's a decent enough squad but he's turned away from future players.

NZ squad named. It looks a very good squad. Razor is on the right track, imo. I don't think it will take much longer until they are humming.

pickarooney · 18-10-2024 10:16AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122727885#Comment_122727885

Would you pick Keenan or Osbourne at 15 against NZ?

It seems almost blasphemous but JO's outing to SA has him technically as the incumbent.

ionadnapóca · 18-10-2024 10:38AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122729538#Comment_122729538

I think that's a little unfair on Harry Byrne.

First up its very hard for us to understand how difficult it is to play sport at an elite level when constantly returning from injury.

Never mind rugby!

The halfbacks are a 'skilled position'. Need game time. Consecutive game time. As a starter.

I played a little. At 9 & 10. Got injured allot. Even at my level (a long, long time ago and a long, long way down the pyramid) I found it really difficult to get my confidence back in my body and the head.

Confidence.

I'm pretty sure Harry has lost a good deal of confidence.

Jan 13th 2024

“Destiny is a good thing to accept when it is going your way. When it isn’t, don’t call it destiny, call it injustice, treachery, or simple bad luck.” The words of Joseph Heller might resonate with Harry Byrne stuck in his own Catch-22 nightmare rugby ordeal.

A rolled ankle in training has cost him a place in today’s Champions Cup pool match, just another bad break for the talented 24-year-old in a career dogged by inordinate injury misfortune. It’s impossible to prove anything if you are not on a pitch.

Afforded the opportunity for game time following a bicep injury that laid low his brother, Ross, Harry had a chance to squeeze into Andy Farrell’s upcoming Ireland Six Nations squad if he’d performed consistently well but he’s been unable to shake off the injury jinx for long enough to compile a persuasive body of work.

https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/2024/01/13/another-bad-break-for-harry-byrne-as-injury-denies-chance-to-impress-for-leinster/

His misfortune gives Ciarán Frawley additional game time in the 10 jersey, one he donned previously in the Champions Cup this season in the victory over Sale Sharks before Christmas. Leo Cullen was asked whether he felt that the Skerries-born player needed to raise in quality terms his contribution level……..

Oct 12th 2021

A hip pointer injury will keep the medical staff fussing and Byrne out of action for this week anyway. But it is ferociously bad luck for the 22-year-old, who had hoped to hustle some game time as Leinster outhalf, the position that provides a never ending sub-narrative in Leo Cullen’s side.

"Trying to make an impression . . . he is trying to get some game time," said Felipe Contepomi. The former Argentinean playmaker was saying what everyone was thinking.

“Like anyone here . . . whenever they have the chance or whenever he has the chance he wants to go out and enjoy. Yeah, I feel sorry for him because he has been training hard and he’s been on and off with niggles and injury and some sickness and so he needs . . . it’s another setback.”

https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/felipe-contepomi-backs-harry-byrne-to-bounce-back-from-latest-injury-blow-1.4697568

Its been pretty much 3 years of this……'its another setback'.

Will he ever play for Ireland again?

I'm going to say - maybe not.

If he leaves Leinster - maybe so.

ionadnapóca · 18-10-2024 10:45AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122732350#Comment_122732350

Technically yes….

& Technically Keenan is still the best FB in Ireland….

My tuppence worth:

15. Keenan; 12. Osborne, 23. Bundee. v NZ

Clegg · 18-10-2024 12:04PM

Very glad to see the IRFU come out against the 20 minute red card.

https://twitter.com/IrishRugby/status/1847231757265092689?t=0iJ9Ty1NVl8YViOx8k1lvg&s=09

RichieRich_89 · 19-10-2024 12:00AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122732350#Comment_122732350

I was thinking more in terms of in-competion selection, where the starter had found a groove and had adjusted to high level play. If there was a third game against SA the week after the second test and Keenan was back available I think there would have been a very strong case for persisting with Osborne at 15. It's a bit different if the next game is four months later.

TheRona · 19-10-2024 02:23AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122732865#Comment_122732865

Did you read the full statement? I think it's poorly worded, as it's actually saying that they approve of the variation that will be used in the Autumn Internationals, with a 20 minute red card utilised unless the act is deliberate and dangerous, whereby the player is removed permanently without a replacement.

This is how they've been doing it in Super Rugby and the RC, and it seems like the IRFU support this, rather than being against it.

sydthebeat · 19-10-2024 07:10AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122732865#Comment_122732865

The irfu welcome the law variation.

They are against something that was never proposed in the first place.

clsmooth · 19-10-2024 07:24AM

‘Match officials will also have the option of a 20-Minute Red Card for technical acts of foul play deemed not to be deliberate or intentional.’

What type of acts of foul play are they describing? Accidental head on head or taking a man out in the air?

ersatz · 21-10-2024 06:56AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122736011#Comment_122736011

This might mitigate a case where a player gets a red for a second yellow offense, that's always been a problem.

ersatz · 21-10-2024 06:58AM

Seeing how many of these SA players are playing with the best teams all over the place makes me wonder if they've turned that to their advantage.

ionadnapóca · 23-10-2024 08:41AM

“I think the experience has made one thing clearer to me: I wouldn’t go into coaching after retirement.”

- Sexton book last week

This week:

part-time mentoring role - Sure!

Needs to get that updated version of the book out before Christmas.

https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/2024/10/22/johnny-sexton-approached-to-join-ireland-set-up-in-mentoring-role/

Johnny Sexton has been approached by the Irish management to assume a part-time mentoring role with the Irish outhalves, and although no agreement has been finalised yet, the expectation is that the former international outhalf and captain will have a small input during the Six Nations, and possibly the forthcoming Autumn Nations Series as well.

The 39-year-old retired after last year’s World Cup as Ireland’s record points scorer with 1,108 in the course of his 118 caps and remains intent on pursuing his post-playing career in business.

In an interview with The Irish Times in March of last year, ahead of his World Cup finale, Sexton said he was unlikely to go into coaching. “I would never say never, you never know what life is going to throw at you.

“It wouldn’t be my plan straight away, if an offer came in, it wouldn’t be right for me to coach with guys I played with the last number of years.

“I certainly wouldn’t want to jeopardise this year, because if they find out you’re coaching them, the relationship changes straight away. I won’t be doing it for the foreseeable future.”

In his recently published biography, Sexton also reflected on the disciplinary process which led to his three-game suspension ahead of the World Cup and underlined his view.

“I think the experience has made one thing clearer to me: I wouldn’t go into coaching after retirement.”

Strictly speaking, that position hasn’t changed, as Sexton will not be co-opted on to the Irish coaching ticket, and he is not expected to assume a coaching role per se. If it does come to pass that he is involved in some way, it is envisaged that Sexton will have a relatively restricted input in a kicking and advisory role to the Irish outhalves in the squad, who are relatively inexperienced.

Jack Crowley, Ciarán Frawley and the uncapped Sam Prendergast were the trio of outhalves in the Irish squad which toured South Africa and are expected to be retained when the squad for the autumn games is announced on Wednesday afternoon.

Crowley and Frawley have worked a little with Sexton, less so Prendergast, and though he is a lovely striker of the ball, he especially would surely benefit from Sexton’s advice.

Viewed in that light it makes sense for Sexton to have a limited involvement for a few hours in match weeks on a consultancy basis without affecting his business career. He has long enjoyed a strong bond with Andy Farrell – who will take a sabbatical from Ireland in the Six Nations when seconded by the British & Irish Lions – from their time as coach and captain over the entirety of the last World Cup cycle, and the squad does not have a specialist kicking coach.

Sexton could, perhaps, also be a beneficial sounding board for Caelan Doris if, as expected, he becomes the full-time Irish captain.

realhorrorshow · 23-10-2024 10:03AM

Looking forward to Jonny coaching Prendergast to take 20m off his line kicks.

ionadnapóca · 23-10-2024 10:14AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122752440#Comment_122752440

😀

David Alred has allot to answer for……Spirals are bad!

ionadnapóca · 23-10-2024 10:30AM

GT prediction for 36 man squad named this afternoon.

https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/2024/10/23/caelan-doris-the-likely-captain-for-irelands-forthcoming-autumn-nations-series/

Possible Ireland squad for Autumn Nations Series

Hookers: Rob Herring (Ulster), Rónan Kelleher (Leinster), Dave Heffernan (Connacht), Gus McCarthy (Leinster).

Props: Andrew Porter (Leinster), Cian Healy (Leinster), Tom O’Toole (Ulster), Tadhg Furlong (Leinster), Finlay Bealham (Connacht), Oli Jager (Munster).

Locks: Tadhg Beirne (Leinster), Joe McCarthy (Leinster), James Ryan (Leinster), Iain Henderson (Ulster).

Backrow: Ryan Baird (Leinster), Caelan Doris (Leinster), Josh van der Flier (Leinster), Cormac Izuchukwu (Ulster), Nick Timoney (Ulster), Peter O’Mahony (Munster), Jack Conan (Leinster).

Scrumhalves: Jamison Gibson-Park (Ulster), Conor Murray (Munster), Craig Casey (Munster).

Outhalves: Jack Crowley (Munster), Ciarán Frawley (Leinster), Sam Prendergast (Leinster).

Centres: Bundee Aki (Connacht), Robbie Henshaw (Leinster), Stuart McCloskey (Ulster), Garry Ringrose (Leinster).

Outside backs: James Lowe (Leinster), Hugo Keenan (Leinster), Mack Hansen (Connacht), Jamie Osborne (Leinster), Calvin Nash (Munster), Jacob Stockdale (Ulster).

…….while he and the Irish management now seemingly see Tom O’Toole as a loosehead.

Although Ulster have reconverted O’Toole to tighthead that mightn’t have changed, and besides it’s hard to see Farrell and his assistants abandoning their investment in a player they clearly believe in and took to the last World Cup, as well as the Six Nations and South African tour.

How can Ulster and Ireland be completely at odds about O'Toole??

Personally I wouldn't have Stockdale in the squad. Is Jimmy O'Brien injured?

Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

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Possible Ireland squad for Autumn Nations Series