Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

Yep, Trevor Brennan's 'Heart & Soul' is well worth a read.

I think Farrell just needs to bite the bullet when it come to lads like Murray, Healy, Pom, Henderson etc. Too much talent coming through to persist with guys on the downward slide

I agree but if Porter gets injured? I'm one of the POM faithful. He is going to be very difficult to replace for the team/squad mentality and leadership.

See 'DARK RED' below!!

https://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/do-i-wish-i-could-take-it-back-of-course-there-are-many-moments-i-wish-i-could-take-back-johnny-sexton-meets-paul-kimmage/a2144887639.html

In the beginning, before the World Player of the Year award and the two Grand Slams and the four Six Nations championships and the four European Cups and the six league titles and the 118 Irish caps and the two Lions tours, there was Jonathan.

That's the name he was given by his father and mother, and what his brothers and sister called him. And what his grandparents called him. And what his uncles and aunts and cousins called him. And what his godfather, Billy Keane, still calls him.

Just Jonathan.

Then they sent him to school - St Mary's in Rathmines - where the boys played rugby, and the custom was to stick an o' at the end of your name. That's when he became Johnno.

He's still Johnno to his friends and most of the people who knew him growing up. And he's still Johnno to his wife, Laura.

Just Johnno.

Then he was offered a place at the Leinster academy where he toiled in the shadows and continued to be Johnno until the coach, Michael Cheika, showered him with praise at a press conference after a game and referred to him as Johnny. Thats what rugby fans have always called him.

Just Johnny.

Time passes quickly in the company of the three Johnnies. We're sitting in the kitchen of his home in south Dublin on a damp Thursday morning. Laura is out, the kids are in school, and were talking about his new career as a commercial manager with the Ardagh Group.

The month has been hectic. He was in the US last week, South Africa a week before and he's been enjoying the transition from his former life... well, mostly.

"Some days are mad busy and other days not as much but there have been times when I've missed rugby desperately.

"It was hard in March when they won the Six Nations. I remember thinking, F**k, I'd love to be in that dressing room. That's the thing I miss most: the dressing room, the fun, the laughter, and the slagging - once you're not on the end of it."

He's a fascinating man. Eleven years have passed since we sat down for the first time. A year and a half later we did it again. I've spent a decade watching his brilliance and wondering about him. Today, it's a moment with our photographer.

"You didn't enjoy that, did you?" I say, when Gerry Mooney leaves. "You don't like having your photograph taken?"

"It could be done in my mind in two or three minutes," he laughs.

"No, that's not it. I could see you were un-comfortable."

"Yeah, I'm not mad about it," he says. "I don't know why."

1 OBSESSED

I couldn't bring myself to watch the quarter-final back. I don't think I ever will. I don't need to. I've mentally replayed every second, over and over. It finishes the same way every time.

Rónan Kelleher still ploughs into Brodie Retallick and Sam Whitelock. Whitelock goes in for the poach, clearly without releasing, but somehow Wayne Barnes awards him the pen-alty, even though it has all happened under his nose - and it's all over.

And as I stand there, hands on hips, staring in disbelief at Barnes, Rieko loane still comes up to me and tells me: 'Get back ten metres.' Huh?

Penalty, he says. Back ten? And then, after Barnes blows the final whistle, he says: Don't miss your flight tomorrow. Enjoy your retire-ment, you c**t.'

So much for the All Blacks' no dickheads' policy. So much for their humility. -Johnny Sexton,'Obsessed'

Paul Kimmage: Let's start with some truth, Johnno, because the truth about most of these blockbuster autobiographies is that you could wrap the jacket around a steaming dog turd, and they would still top the bestsellers list at Christmas. But I started the first chapter of yours and thought: 'Hmmm... promising ... I like the tone. And I kept reading and thought, No, it's better than promising. It's good. Then I started worrying, 'Is it really good? Or is it just because I'm getting the in-terview?' But by the end there was no doubt.

Great book. Well done.

Johnny Sexton: Thank you.

PK: But I shouldn't have started with a compliment.

JS: (Laughs)

PK: Now, it's 11 years since the first time we sat down in September 2013 and you were dreading the extracts from your first book. Becoming a Lion, that would soon be published. Here's what you said a year later when I asked you about the experience: "It was OK. It was a diary of a year, and wasn't a massive insight into me, but it gave people a snapshot of what a professional rugby player goes through, mentally and sometimes physically. I don't massively regret doing it, but I'm still not sure if it was the right thing to do."

JS: I probably feel the same about this book.

PK: Why?

JS: Well, it's always a balance, isn't it? I've got a room up there which is full of books and autobiographies - all heroes of mine - so you want to be up there with them but that means taking yourself out of your comfort zone. And it was a long process because the diary book was [published] in 2013, and then I made an agreement with Penguin to do an 'end of career' book, which we all thought would be in 2019.

PK: Peter [O'Reilly, his ghostwriter] says you started the project in 2017?

JS: Yeah, so it's been a long seven years.

PK: And given your initial reservations about the first book, why do it? Why take yourself out of that comfort zone?

JS: Well, like I said, my favourite players all did it, and I was inspired by people like Keith Earls, who was very honest about his struggles. And when you commit to something like this you want to be truthful, and honest. I mean, if someone asks me a question I'm going to try and answer as honestly as I can, without getting myself in too much trouble.

PK: (Laughs) Which doesn't always work.

JS: No, so what I tried to get across was, 'This is what I was thinking at the time? And not everyone's going to like it but...

PK: Where did you get the title?

JS: (Laughs) We didn't know what to call it. I had to do a couple of photos for the launch and the guys from Penguin were there and we were just throwing around ideas. It was a word Leo Cullen used a lot in terms of... that to succeed you needed guys in the environment that were obsessed and lived for it. So I probably stole it from him. And he was probably a guy that was obsessed.

PK: Leo?

JS: Yeah.

PK: Really?

JS: He still is I would say.

PK: He doesn't come across like that.

JS: Well, he keeps himself to himself in a lot of ways, but he's first-in-last-out every day at Leinster. He works his ass off and he's been there for so long. You kind of have to be a bit obsessed to be there for that long, and to have the drive. So, yeah, I probably stole it from him, but I also said to the guys that it vas important that the title was reflected in the book. So we said, Let's see the end product and then decide?

PK: I think it’s fair to say it fits. And I would agree with Leo: I think in most walks of life, and most definitely in sport, you need a degree of it to succeed.

JS: I think so, yeah. I had plenty of arguments with sports psychologists over the years who challenged me in saying, ‘You don’t have to torture yourself to get the best out of yourself.’ But I was so worried and so preoccupied with the game that even on a day off — when the wind was blowing, and the weather was shite — I’d have to do a couple of hours’ kicking. Had to. I would have died worrying if I hadn’t done that prep. But there’s a balance there. You need to switch off and take care of some of the other things in your life, and I probably learned that a bit late. But I learned it.

PK: Go to the book. It starts here, in your kitchen, on a grey morning a couple of days after the World Cup, and the realisation you’ve got time on your hands. Laura is out, the kids are at school, and the first pangs of withdrawal hit.

(I pause for a moment and look at him.)

JS: Is that a question?

PK: No, but feel free to interject. So you’re here, in the kitchen, and you start reflecting on the end and the defeat to New Zealand that you say you still haven't watched?

JS: No.

PK: Because, you say, it finishes the same way every time.

JS: Yeah.

PK: Staring in disbelief with your hands on your hips as Rieko loane comes at you, 'Don't miss your flight tomorrow. Enjoy your retirement, you c**t. And we're only five pages in but I'm already starting to warm to you because you don't spare this guy.

JS: Well, it's not about sparing or not sparing. It's about, why did I react in such a way? Because that's what you see. You see my reaction - me walking after him: 'The sore loser, giving out as usual?

PK: But not what provoked you?

JS: Yeah. So that was the reason. I also go on to talk about the other guys the Barrett brothers, Ardie Savea and Joe Schmidt.

PK: And how gracious they were?

JS: Yeah, and you can see that famous All Black team ethos in them. So it was just to explain what happened, 'This is why I re-acted. And that's what I tried to do right through the book.

PK: Show, don't tell?

JS: Yeah, well, we used to have an expression with Joe, no tells. Poker face we called it. In certain games, when you re going to a real hostile atmosphere, you don't want to give the crowd another reason to get up for the game. So it was no tells (laughs) something I was very good at -not and in Paris, when the final whistle went, I knew my career was done. So, yeah, that was also the reason I reacted the way I did... look, he probably doesn't like me very much – join the list — but it was just one of those things.

2 WHAT NOW?

The next morning at the airport, Laura called me and said the media had gone to town on my head-shaking. I had undermined Faz - that was the headline. There was no holding back. Three former high-profile captains jumped on board. Keith Wood, Paulie and Brian all criticised me for showing my displeasure so obviously. I thought they might have supported me, protected me. 'That's Johnny. 'He's fiery.'He wears his heart on his sleeve? 'Of course he was disappointed’. But no. It was a pile on. -Johnny Sexton, 'Obsessed'

PK: So you're in the kitchen reflecting on the defeat, your final game, and you've reached a juncture dreaded by every professional sportsman: What do I do now?' And there's the option of a job with the Ardagh Group but you're not sure: What about all this rugby knowledge that I've built up over the years? Should I go back to the IRFU and Leinster and ask them about opportunities that they'd proposed to me? I've been in this game for 18 seasons. Am I mad to just walk away from it completely?'

JS: Yeah.

PK: What were the opportunities?

JS: We talked about lots of different roles, nothing ever too concrete. You know, it was: 'Are you interested in staying in the game? Would you like to get into coaching down the line?' And the only thing I was sure about was that I needed a break from the game. I had it in my head that if I was going to do coaching I'd try to get to Australia to work with rugby league teams; or to America to work with some basketball teams and to see some people outside of rugby. But if you're not willing to travel with your family coaching is a hard thing to do, and my wife was not willing to take the kids to Japan or France or New Zealand.

PK: She'd been there and got the T-shirt?

JS: Yeah, we'd gone to Paris and had a great experience, but would we do it again with three kids? No. They love home. They love Dublin. They love their grandparents. They love their schools. And I wasn't going to com-mute, so I thought, 'Let's try something else.' And I'd done some part-time work with this company for three years …

PK: Ardagh?

JS: Yeah, with a view to going full-time. So that was a huge opportunity for me, but I didn't know what it would look like to go full-time, and it was that uncertainty that killed me. I had nothing to do but play golf.

PK: You played a pro-am in Dubai with Rory in November?

JS: Yeah, an amazing experience.

PK: Why?

JS: Because you're watching this guy hit the ball and it's like... he's arguably the best hitter of a golf ball that's ever lived, and you get to watch him up close and walk the fairway with him. I tried not to ask him too many annoying questions because I'm sure when he plays in these pro-ams he gets badgered with a million questions.

PK: He'd been to the South African game.

JS: Yeah, he's a big rugby fan, so they were the good parts of retirement - getting to do that or getting to play nine holes at Milltown with Shane [Lowry] when he was home. But there was a lot of idle time, you know, sitting in this room thinking, What does the future look like?'

PK: It's later in the book when you explain some of the reasons for the choice you make. It's May 20, 2023, and Leinster are playing La Rochelle in the final of the Champions Cup. You're injured and pitchside at the Aviva when the final seconds are played, and incensed by two of the refereeing decisions: "As I walked out to console the Leinster guys I couldn't stop myself from saying something to the match officials, who were standing together on half-way. 'It's a f**king disgrace that you guys can't get the big decisions right."

JS: (Smiles)

PK: You know you shouldn't have done it and apologise, but there's a problem - a three-game suspension that disrupts the build-up to the World Cup. And it hurts. Here's what's interesting: "Subconsciously, though, I think the experience had made one thing clearer for me, I wouldn't go into coaching after retirement."

JS: (Laughs) Yeah... there was a lot at play that day. Maybe I'm being a little bit dramatic with it in terms of.

PK: It's simplistic?

JS: Well, there was a lot at play. I mean, if you're going into coaching you are attached to the team, but that day in particular was probably one of the toughest... it's a home European Cup and I've picked up this stupid injury. Leo asks me to present the jerseys. I'm in the meetings and helping out but secretly a little bit bitter that I'm not playing. so you re full of emotion really, I suppose.

PK: And you're not playing. There's no release.

JS: Yeah, it should have been my last game for Leinster, a European Cup final at the Aviva, I was captain, maybe we'd win it, so it was just the accumulation of all that. Do I wish I could take it back? Of course. There are many moments in the book I wish I could take back...

PK: Moments when you let yourself down?

JS: Yeah.

PK: Moments when Laura was watching, and your family were watching?

JS: Yeah, and I'd lie awake that night, 'F**k!

What was I doing?' And the worst bit about that day was that I was with my son, 'Oh God!"

PK: Did he say anything?

JS: No, he...

PK: You're still a great dad?'

JS: (Laughs) I don't know if he was saying that... no, I shouldn't have done it full stop, and the fact that he was there was just... and then he used a similar word - disgrace at another game and Laura killed him for it. She said, 'That's your fault!"

PK: (Laughs)

JS: Yeah, you don't want to be doing that stuff and... look, it's done now but I did try and apologise during the trophy presentation. I was just too emotional.

PK: There was a lot of niggle that day: "By the break La Rochelle were back in it at 23-14. I went downstairs to go to the loo. There were a few lively words with some of the La Rochelle coaching staff outside of the match officials room, Leo had sent Seanie O Brien down to keep them away from Jaco Peyper."

JS: Well, there was obviously stuff going on in the tunnel and yeah, it wouldn't be like me to get involved in an argument (laughs) so I threw a few of my thoughts in and went to the toilet. But look, that's part of it, isn't it?

PK: There's one glaring absence in the contributory factors through all of this - the La Rochelle coach.

JS: In all of it?

PK: In that episode and your description of what happened?

JS: Oh, it had nothing to do with that.

PK: It had nothing to do with O'Gara or what he was saying in the build-up? That it was Leinster at the Aviva? A chance to absolutely f**k you over!

JS: No, well, obviously there might have been a small bit but like I remember we played them in the European final in '22, in Marseille, and again the media trying to make it into Sexton against O'Gara, but I was like, Im playing. He's coaching. So no, there was none of that. I wanted to win for Leinster. I wanted us to get to five stars. I'd set myself that goal for the end of my career to get to five, but it wasn't to be.

PK: Another thing you're adamant about in the book is that you're not going to do punditry.

JS: Yeah... but I could do a Roy Keane on it.

PK: (Laughs) Here's how you explain it [in the book]: "I find it difficult to sidestep a straight question, which is probably why the media seemed to like to interview me. I didn't always like doing the interviews but I understood it is part of the job. It took me a while to get used to the fact that someone could slate you in print and act like they're your best buddy the next time you see them. But I always tried to be respectful, and honest. A few people have told me that such honesty would make me a good pundit, but I let it be known during my career that I wasn't interested. If being honest means saying something critical about a former teammate to a huge TV audience, then thanks but no thanks."

JS: I think to be a good pundit you need to give your honest opinion. You know, if someone's having a bad game - and I do the same when I'm watching football - I'll be giving out about this guy and that guy, but I don't know what it's like to be a professional foot-baller. I know what it's like to be a professional rugby player and I think, if I was a pundit, my natural reaction would be to protect. To go: Hold on. We don't know what's going on with this guy. Is he playing with an injury? Is he going through something off the pitch? Maybe it's not his fault. And that's because of the relationships I've built up with the team. So it's not for me. I'm not saying it's wrong or right - lots of people have done it, and that was their choice. This is my choice.

PK: You're not doing it?

JS: No, but like I said, maybe in five or six years I'll be like Roy Keane.

PK: You tell a story in the book about Keith Wood, Paul O'Connell and Brian O'Driscoll having a go at you for shaking your head when Andy Farrell pulled you off that time against France in Paris. You weren't impressed.

JS: No, because if that was me, my instinct would be to protect: Look, he's pissed off that he's been taken off as captain. But there was a sense of...

PK: That you were being petulant.

JS: Exactly, and you would expect that with some sections of the media but not from past players. They know what it's like to be in the heat of battle, and to get taken out of it, so I was kind of like, Wow!'

PK: So it comes down to what Mick McCarthy once said: You're either inside the tent pissing out, or outside the tent pissing in." You can't be both?

JS: Yeah, well I made a decision not to do it, so I'll never know. like, I'm sure if you ask the players that have, they find parts of it tough: 'Oh my God I really didn't want to say it but that's my job.' So I understand that it's tough on them as well, but I'm just not willing to do it.

3 DARK RED

During those years I knew something wasn't right. Naturally, I felt the need to blame someone and mum was the obvious target. Why? Well, it's not like I was going to have a go at dad. I hero-worshipped him. Id spent all that time with him growing up, going to and from Donnybrook or Glenamuck, all those evenings spent together watching Man U on TV. I didn't want to upset or annoy him. It was difficult with mum, who used to get emotional. According to my naive view of the world, your mum was supposed to be the one who provides you with emotional support, not the one who needs support herself. So I was often impatient with her, intolerant, difficult..I'd probably decided that mum was to blame for what was going on between her and dad. I can be pretty black and white like that. I was unlikely to find fault with my dad, not when I craved his approval too deeply. - Johnny Sexton, 'Obsessed'

PK: What were the difficult conversations?

JS: Through the book?

PK: Yeah, you mention them in the acknowledgements: "Thank you, Peter: I didn't always enjoy getting coaxed into the difficult conversations, but you did a great job."

JS: The moments I knew I'd let myself down— they were difficult conversations. Talking about personal things like family..

PK: Your father and mother breaking up?

JS: Yeah.

PK: I would argue that you had to do that.

JS: Well, that's part of me, yeah. And what shaped me. I didn't want to go into the nitty gritty but I hopefully got the balance right.

PK: One of my all-time favourite questions is, 'Who are you?" I think you know. I think you've spent a lot of time thinking about it, and I think you've worked it out.

JS: Hmmm, yeah, but only towards the end.

PK: OK, well let's go to the start, the nuts and bolts. You're the eldest of four, two brothers, Mark and Jerry, and a sister, Gillian. Your dad, Jerry, is from Listowel. He's an accountant and a brother of Willie Sexton, a three-time rugby international. Your mother, Clare, is from Dublin. She's a hairdresser and a daughter of John Nestor, a gifted amateur international golfer, known as Mr Gruff' and a stickler for rules. So that's where you get it from?

JS: (Laughs) Yeah, that's been said.

PK: Here's what interests me. You're 18 years old and playing in a Leinster Senior Cup game for St Mary's against Blackrock. You play well but lose narrowly, and the only thing that matters to you, really matters, is what your father thinks...

JS: Is everyone not like that?

PK: Just calm down and listen for a minute:

"I was upset coming off the pitch and I could see he was upset, too. I've seen that look on his face after other Schools Cup matches my brothers have been involved in, when he was close to tears — tears of pain but also of pride that myself or Mark or Jerry had given all we had to give. And I saw that look on his face in Donnybrook that afternoon."

JS: Yeah.

PK: Here's something that happens eight years before. Your dad is coaching at Bective. He's in the bar one night chatting with some pals and you're rattled by something he says: "Jonathan's skilful but he's a bit small for rugby. He could be a good soccer player. But wait till you see my younger fella, Mark. He's as aggressive as anything. It's funny the way these things register with you."

JS: (Smiles)

PK: Here's another example. You're making your debut for the Leinster academy, an under 21 interpros game against Ulster at Donny-brook. You play great until five minutes from the end when you're called ashore and feel a tap on your shoulder as you sit back against a hoarding: "That was awesome, mate. See you at training on Monday? It was Michael Cheika, the new Leinster coach. Holy Christ. I could see the old man was down at the Bective end. Wait till he hears this." So the running theme here is your dad's approval.

JS: Yeah.

PK: A craving for your dad's approval.

JS: But like I said, is everyone not like that?

PK: I don't think so.

JS: Really?

PK: I don't think so.

JS: Well, that's what I was like as a kid. And the theme is to impress or to prove wrong.

PK: No, that's different.

JS: Yeah, it is but...

PK: The giveaway is when he's praising Mark. That... trigger.

JS: Naah, it was just a...

PK: It registers with you.

JS: Yeah.

PK: Why does it register with you?

JS: Well, it was a kind of moment where you go, I'll show you? It was almost like ... maybe he did it on purpose (laughs). Maybe he was like a quasi-sports psychologist.

PK: There's no way he did it on purpose.

JS: No, I don't think so. But I was very aware when I was younger of things that... even when I was older. I talk later in the book about the dressing room at half-time in the Australia game [at the 2011 World Cup] and hearing Declan Kidney. And he's probably a good bit away from me but I could hear him [asking an assistant coach Mark Tainton if he needed to bring on O'Garal and again it was... that chip on the shoulder. That was one side of me, definitely.

PK: I'll show you?

JS: Yeah, but there was also a need to impress. And your father is the person you aspire to impress, at least in your early years, most as a kid. He [his father] was the guy that brought me to the rugby when I was 6, 7, so he's the person you aspire to impress most of the time, or at least in your early years. I would say your father shapes you in so many different ways, and I would say [it's the same for] every kid.

PK: Does your mother not shape you?

JS: Of course.

PK: See, that's what's interesting. She tries to console you after that Schools Cup game - You couldn't have tried any harder, Jonathan' but you're not interested in what she says.

JS: Yeah, but there's that side to me as well.! mean, sometimes it could take me a week to calm down, 'OK, I did try my best.' And thats reflected in her, and her influence. I remember when I was playing tennis as a kid, she was the one that I relied on or wanted to say, You did brilliant. So it was both of them really.

PK: Here's the note I made: 'He's spent a lot of time looking at himself and trying to work out who he is' Would you run with that?

JS: Yes, but only towards the end. And only because great people made me.

PK: Stuart Lancaster and his 'colour' test

JS: Exactly.

("Stu was strong on leadership, on communication and building relationships. He go: us thinking about the different personality types within the group. One test we did, which involved answering 100 multiple choice questions, grouped everyone into four personality types, differentiated by colour: blues are deep thinkers, analytical; greens are cool, laid-back and patient; yellows are extrovert and fun; and reds are strong-willed, drivers, highly competitive. When all the answers had bee collated, Stu announced that we had lots o the various colours but only one pure red. There was a pause, as everyone looked out at me, and then we all exploded into laughter. It was funny for sure, but it was also on eye-opener. I was now the outlier, and it was me that needed to change.")

PK: That was brilliant.

TS: Its hilarious ...I think Sean OBrien was in the same colour.

PK: You said there was only one red?

JS: Yeah, well I think he was like orange or bordering, I was like a dark, dark red.

PK: (Laughs)

JS: But it was an eye-opener, wasnt it? Because like, now Im the minority, whereas in the early days at Leinster we probably had a load of characters like that.

PK: Really?

JS: Yeah, big time, Leo, Shane Jennings, Shane Horgan, characters that were competitive and uncompromising. The Trevor Hogans, the Fergus McFaddens, the Seán O'Briens... they were all like that.

So at that stage I wouldn't have stood out, whereas towards the end at Leinster it was very different. I was the minority, I had to find a new way to get the best out of myself, but also, as captain, to try and influence others. So there was a great laugh at the time when he presented it, but after that we had a serious conversation: 'Hold on….'

PK: There's another way?

JS: Yeah. And the worrying thing for me was that I tried to rig the test. I tried to cheat. My honest answer to a question would be a '5, but I'd give it a 4? or a '3' just to tone it down.

PK: (Laughs)

JS: But obviously the test was too good.

PK: There are also some other interesting conclusions to another test, the 'Insights Discovery test. "When communicating with Johnny DO NOT: Try to control the conversation. Underestimate his ability to decide for himself. Criticise his ideas or take issue with his ideas. Try to manipulate his point of view. Wait for praise or recognition."

JS: (Laughs)

PK: I'm sorry Laura is not here. I'm sure she would identify with that.

JS: Oh, she's read it. She was laughing her head off. But it's trying to acknowledge your ...because they're all flaws really. And how can you get better if you don't know you're doing something wrong?

PK: There's also another truth, one delivered to you by Brad Thorn in the dressing room after a game: "Don't change, mate. Don't change anything. For anyone."

JS: Yeah, that was a huge moment (laughs), but probably not what I needed at that time.

Whose VC?!?

….Personally I'd go with Doris. Not overly impressed with him as a Captain. Yet. He's only 26. He's a World Class player.

Either which way I much prefer captains in the forwards. & 80min men if possible. Ryan might may even come into the reckoning again in the future.

I don't think it would harm the dynamic of the team at all if Beirne was made captain, Munster player, Leinster centric team etc..

4 FAITH

I was back in my apartment the following morning, a Monday, when dad called with sad news. Daddy John had died. It wasn't really a surprise. He was 83 and had had cancer for a few years. I'd seen him a few months previously and he was struggling. Wed watched TV together, with him in bed, attached to a drip. He never complained. Dad was already in Listowel with his four brothers. He said the coffin would be kept open for me if I could make it down by Tuesday night - it was a typical country funeral with a wake that lasted a couple of days. I headed off with Laura after training. It was only when we arrived in town that the emotion hit me..

They buried Daddy John with his phone and a deck of cards. He used to call you whenever it was quiet in the shop. He chatted to my mum a lot, and to Laura. Loved keeping in touch with people. And now here we were the next day, walking behind his hearse all the way from the church to the graveyard on the Ballybunion Road, stopping outside the shop where he had lived all his life, the whole town at a standstill. This was the week before Christmas and it was freezing. I remember because I was only wearing a suit. I picked up a cold but was determined to play the return game against Clermont at the Aviva that Saturday. We won well but I was overcome with emotion in the dressing room afterwards. Grief can show itself at strange times. - Johnny Sexton, 'Obsessed'

PK: Let's talk about some of the other things that shaped you — school and your time at St Mary's. This is fascinating: "Rugby was part of the ethos of the school, as devised by the Spiritan Congregation, formerly known as the Holy Ghost Fathers. Fr Flavin used Spiritan imagery to coach us how to receive a pass: 'Hands towards the passer, fingers spread and pointing upwards, thumbs touching: Our hands were to be shaped like the outspread wings of a dove - the symbol for the Holy Ghost." Now, let me tell you, Johnno. I've read all those rugby books you have in that room, but I've never read anything like that.

JS: In terms of?

PK: The teachings of the Church on rugby! A sermon on how to receive a rugby ball.

JS: Well, that's how they used to describe it ..Fr McNulty. Fr Flavin….. they were huge influences through the early days. They'd have you out... Fr Flavin used to kick the soccer balls over the walls into the army barracks (laughs): 'Get the rugby balls out!' They were doing skills drills with us at half-eight in the morning, and that's what they used to say: Hands towards the passer..? Things that coaches are teaching professionals now. It was brilliant.

PK: They've had a lot of bad press recently, the Spiritans.

JS: Yeah, well I never had any bad experiences like that. Obviously you hear some of the stories and it's terrible, but for me they were fantastic, those two in particular. And they were the only two priests that we had any sort of interaction with.

PK: "Religion was a significant part of life in St Mary's, too. There was an optional mass before school, which we'd always attend on the mornings of cup matches. Sometimes I'd be altar boy. Richie would always be there.." This is your English teacher, Richie Hughes?

JS: Yeah.

PK: And also a rugby coach?

JS: Yeah, the under 13s.

PK: "He'd never begin class without first blessing himself and then saying a 'Hail Mary, an 'Our Father' or a 'Come O Holy Ghost': "Come O Holy Ghost, fill the hearts of thy faithful and kindle in them the fire of thy love. Send forth thy Spirit and they shall be created. And You shall renew the face of the earth. Amen." That's something else I've never read in a rugby book.

JS: (Smiles)

PK: And I didn't see this coming: "My Leinster and Ireland teammates probably don't realise that I used to say those three prayers in the dressing room, just before we'd huddle up. Or that I used to go to mass on the eve of Test matches in Dublin. I'd slip out of the Shelbourne Hotel and head down to St Theresa's Church on Clarendon Street. It's not a superstition, and it's not a case of praying that I win the man-of-the-match award. It's just part of who I am. I believe. I have faith." JS: Yeah, well... my grandparents on both sides would have...

PK: Both sides?

JS: Yeah, we were brought up... my mum and dad would have brought us to mass on Sunday, mainly my mum. I remember it because I used to go mad when we had rugby, and would beg her to leave a bit early. But yeah, both sides. Through the summer months, when I was staying with my granny and grandad in Listowel, we always got brought to mass on Sunday. And it was like every single person from the town was there. You could barely get into the church! So obviously you're influenced by that as a kid, and then you go to Mary's and spend from [age] 10 to 18 with the same messages, the same... religion. So you take that with you, I did anyway, and Laura would have had the same upbringing.

PK: Really?

JS: Even more so. So our kids... they stay a lot with their granny and grandad on Saturday night, and go to mass on Sunday. And it's not every Sunday but yeah, it's just part of the family really.

PK: Your grandparents were formative influences.

JS: Hmmm.

PK: You carried John Nestor's wedge in your golf bag.

JS: (Smiles): Yeah, but I couldn't hit it.

PK: And I absolutely loved the passage on Daddy John's funeral.

JS: Yeah, again, a huge influence in many ways.

And very different to all the other influences you have because it's your grandad - he's meant to be different. So I'd go down to him and it would be just pure relaxation and joy, eat what you want, do what you want, play pool until 11.30 at night, sleep till one and have your lunch for breakfast. So those are the memories. And I'd ring him a lot and go down with Laura. So a massive...

PK: Part of your life?

JS: Yeah, and all his grandkids would say the same.

PK: And I loved the passage on the contents of your bag when you make your 100th cap:

Shoulder pads, cycle shorts, match-kicking tee, a pair of specially designed Adidas boots with Laura and the kids' initials, and a box for your gumshield. "In that box I also had the Miraculous Medal that Richie Hughes gave me in school, some rosary beads that I nicked from my granny's house in Listowel, a stone from Daddy John's grave, and my wedding ring." Class!

JS: Well, that's just what was in there.

PK: But these mementos from the people that influenced you, that anchored you, you took them with you. You kept them with you. You didn't leave them behind.

JS: Yeah, but I would hate... that would be the worst insult to get, that you'd lost sight of where you'd come from. And I'm not perfect, far from it, and obviously there have been times on the pitch when I've let myself down.

But I would like to think I haven't changed much over the years - that would be the most important thing through it all. That people would say, He's the same guy that we knew when he was in school.

5 DEAR JONATHAN...

We were all encouraged to contribute in meetings, but if Joe didn't agree with you, he cut you dead with one syllable: Nah.

It was devastating.

Joe, I reckon we should have a runner coming short here...Nah. We don't need to do that.

Joe, last season we used to do X.

Nah.

The good thing was that he'd explain why X wouldn't work. I loved the clarity he was giving us, loved his certainty. You suggest stuff to some coaches and even though they disagree with you, they won't say it straight. They'll give you some wishy-washy answer to keep you onside. With Joe, there was a right way of doing something and a wrong way, and you were left in no doubt which was which.

He educated us and also entertained us - whether he knew it or not. Anyone who'd got the Joe treatment in a meeting got a proper going over in the dressing room, too. Someone got one of those Leinster baseball caps and taped a sticker with the word NAH' over the logo.

Anyone who got burned by Joe in a meeting had to wear the cap in training.

- Johnny Sexton, "Obsession'

PK: What age is Luca now?

JS: Ten.

PK: You sent him to the same school?

JS: He's in Mary's, yeah.

PK: Your mother says she stopped smoking to send you there?

JS: We used to be at loggerheads about the smoking. I used to flush them down the toilet or chop them up with a scissors (laughs). She'd go mental because they were expensive. So I wasn't always the best kid.

PK: Your parents clearly made sacrifices to send you there.

JS: Oh yeah, big time, they worked really hard.

PK: And your teachers were brilliant. I presume Richie Hughes has retired?

JS: Yeah, a good few years now.

PK: Brian Wall?

JS: I met him the other day.

PK: Did you?

JS: Yeah, because I'd asked him for permission to put the letter into the book.

PK: Permission?

JS: Some of the stories I asked for permission just to make sure that guys were happy. There's a very funny story about Joe Schmidt taking down lan Madigan, so I text 'Mads' and said, Look, I'm trying to tell my own story here and not bring in other people's

PK: This is "nah?"

JS: (Laughs) Yeah. It was brilliant. We had great crack with Joe about that.

PK: So you asked Ian?

JS: Yeah, I text him and he said, No problem.

PK: And you asked Brian Wall about the letter?

JS: Yeah, and there was a little bit of resistance.

He was kind of like, I don't know... let me think about it? He would be a very thoughtful guy, but thankfully the letter went in.

PK: "Dear Jonathan, what lies ahead of you may reshape and change your life forever. Be sure to enjoy all it has to offer. Enjoy the profile. Enjoy the success. Enjoy the medals and trophies. Enjoy the attention, Enjoy the praise. Enjoy the freebies and enjoy the new genuine friends. Cherish this type of success and all it has to offer. "However, be careful. The game you are about to enter is drastically different from the one you have played for the last six years. The schools rugby you have played was interested in Jonathan Sexton the person and not the player. You were minded. You were watched over. You were taken care of in a way that will contrast with what you encounter for the rest of your playing career. The game that is ahead of you is not interested in you. It is interested in a player. It is interested in a number to fill a position. It is interested in winning at all costs. It will want you to surrender your mind. It will want you to surrender your body. It will want you to surrender your integrity and sense of fairness. It will want you to say yes at all times. That is what today's game is about. Learn to say no and say it with conviction..." Wow! That is un-f**king-believable!

JS: Yeah.

PK: It's possibly the best page in the book.

JS: The letter?

PK: Yeah, that he would do that. That he would have that... what's the word?

JS: Foresight.

PK: Yeah, foresight, he knows you're going to get there. But it's more than that... I mean, I've spent my life in pro sport and seen every f**king nuance of it, and he was... what?

What did he teach?

JS: Chemistry and maths.

PK: But he knew exactly what it was.

JS: Yeah, it was... the one thing I would say is, yes, you see that in pro sport. Did I experience it myself? Sometimes, but not all the time. We were lucky in Leinster — well, I was lucky - with the team that we had around [us]. The coaches that I worked with were great people. The coaches at Ireland that I worked with were great people. So I don't think that side of the letter came true, but it made me aware of it.

PK: You played in the 'Bloodgate' game [the 2009 Heineken Cup quarter-final when a Harlequins player, Tom Williams, feigned an injury using a fake blood capsule]?

JS: I was on the sideline.

PK: You saw it?

JS: I saw it, yeah.

PK: Pro sport in all its ugliness. Cheating. Do anything to f**king win.

JS: And that's what he was describing, yeah.

PK: That's what he was describing.

JS: Yeah, and I see it. I do see it in other sports, or some teams in sports. But definitely, for me, I was blessed with the coaches and the people. Of course, the nature of pro sport is that if you're not cutting it or performing you’re gone - that is pro sport. There's no sugar-coating it. And that will always be true. If you're not performing, you're gone, and I don't see anything wrong with that. You hear Roy Keane describing it with Man United, it's cut-throat. It is. But the side that you're talking about, I never...

PK: What am I talking about?

JS: What you just described in terms of win at all costs. That would imply going out and playing when you're injured, or going out and putting yourself at risk.

PK: Which you did.

JS: Well, you do in every game but you don't I was never forced into it; I was never told, You have to play this game.'

PK: You were told.

JS: In what?

PK: When you broke your jaw against Clermont: "As I was being examined by the doc, the message coming loud and clear from Cheiks was that I had to stay on."

JS: (Laughs) Well he didn't know I definitely had a broken jaw, and neither did I, and that's what made me stay on. Because I was so paranoid that if I came off the pitch in the quarter-final against Clermont and my jaw wasn't broken... yeah, my teeth were in the middle of my mouth so in hindsight ... but he didn't know for sure, and I didn't know for sure.

PK: How old are you when Brian sends the letter?

JS: Eighteen.

PK: So I imagine all that stuff goes straight over your head?

JS: No, it didn't.

PK: It didn't?

JS: Well, there's lots of other stuff in it that [resonated] but there's also stuff I should have listened to more: "Learn to say no and say it forcefully." I should have said no to this book! (Laughs) It would have saved me a lot of hassle.

PK: You don't mean that.

JS: Emm, well, I'd be. there's not a lot of things you can do without getting some level of criticism, you say too little, you say too much, you don't give enough mentions to people that had a big influence. Peter wrote a good book but I'm going to blame him for this — it's his questions that direct [the story] of my career, and I would have liked to have mentioned all of the teammates that I had.

PK: But then it ends up becoming a f**king thank you note, or a business card: 'I want to thank all my sponsors blah, blah, blah? What about me? I'm the f**king reader! What about the loyalty to me? Peter was right.

JS: Well, that's good to hear. My worry is that maybe I got the balance...

PK: I don't see it.

JS: Yeah, well, hopefully.

PK: There is one thing missing - the 'impact of celebrity. You don't address that at all.

JS: I address it once.

PK: Remind me.

JS: Just a bit after I won World Player of the Year in 2018. We went down to Thomond Park and there was a few scuffles in the game I felt the reaction was way above...

PK: What it should have been?

JS: Yeah.

(Munster won, but their supporters seemed to have more fun taking the piss out of us. At least that was how it looked on Instagrum feed. A few examples:

You really let yourself down tonight, Sexton. You're a disgrace.

You're a disgrace, pack of thugs.

F**k off back to the Pale.

Youve gone from World Player of the Year to World Dickhead of the Year.

What really upset me was that Laura was upset... she told me I had to be extra careful now, because I was Leinster captain, because of the World Player award.")

JS: But I would always have been conscious of that — ‘Have I taken my foot off the gas? Has the [award] changed me?’ — and made sure I didn’t get dragged into that side of things.

PK: I’ve a sense you never enjoyed that aspect of it?

JS: No.

PK: It makes you uncomfortable or . . .

JS: I wouldn’t say uncomfortable.

PK: You were uncomfortable just now having your photo taken.

JS: Yeah, I mean it’s still . . . Laura gives out to me when I get stopped in the street: ‘You could have been nicer.’ So it’s still a shock to me sometimes.

PK: I’m reminded of your ‘Mace’ ad.

JS: Don’t bring that into it.

PK: Why?

JS: That would have made me very uncomfortable. I remember we were in the team room one night watching the Irish Under-20s play. The ad came on and I jumped up to leave and the lads dragged me back. It was torture! And it was on a cycle, at the start, half-time and at the end. So there was no escape.

PK: What I like about it is that it captures the essential you: standing there, brooding over what you’ll put in your sandwich; oblivious to the excitement of the woman behind the counter who is absolutely thrilled to be serving Johnny Sexton.

JS: (Laughs) Well, she’s an actress, Paul – just to let you know.

PK: Yeah, but she does a great job!

JS: No, she's an actress. You might get the odd exuberant fan but most people, Irish people, are brilliant. They've always been very good to me.

6 LEGACY

In the days after we got back, many more cards and letters came through the letter box. To reply to everyone individually would have taken months. Laura suggested that I should say something publicly, on social media, to acknowledge all this goodwill. I'd never formally retired from rugby so here was a chance to make it official and thank everyone at the same time.

So I sat down with a pen and a notebook and tried to figure out exactly what I wanted to say and how I wanted to say it. I wanted to express gratitude but I also needed to confront the way that everything had ended, the sense of failure, of incompleteness. I started and stopped and restarted God knows how many times, editing and deleting and struggling to find the right words. It took me about a week to get it right. - Johnny Sexton, ‘Obsessed’

PK: Give me the moment.

JS: The moment?

PK: The one you'd take with you. You say in the book that you've only got one photo in the house from your playing career - the drop goal against France in 2018.

JS: Yeah.

PK: And I'm not trying to lead you down the path here...

JS: (Laughs) Yeah, well you are.

PK: OK i am, because that's the one that stands out for me.

JS: It would stand out to me as well, but maybe not for the reasons people would think.

PK: What are your reasons?

JS: Well, if you go back to when we lost to New Zealand [in November 2013], it was a kick from me that probably cost us the game ...well, that did cost us the game. I mean you miss kicks, I've missed them from day one to the last day, but I'd never had a kick that cost us something like that. A chance of history, a chance to beat New Zealand for the first time, a chance for Paul and Brian who would never get to experience it. And it beat me up. That kick beat me up. I remember the review on the Monday. The video was on a big screen and it was me lining up the kick. I thought, He's not going to show it!' And he did. He showed the kick, the whole thing, from the start to it missing. Then we watched the next seven/eight minutes from start to finish and basically, what we took from it, was that we couldn't live with the All Blacks when they were at their best.

PK: Sure.

JS: Their intensity. The amount of time they could keep the ball. We couldn't defend at the end stage of a game, So Joe became really obsessed with this (laughs) and in every session we did we would have to try and keep the ball - I think the target was three minutes - or we would have to defend for three minutes. And we worked on this honestly for every session. Every session we'd finish with it. And five years later we got the fruits of his preparation.

PK: The drop goal.

JS: Yeah. And most other coaches…well, let's say other coaches, would have said, Look, we were unlucky we didn't win? But he made us face up to it. He made us face reality. And yeah, it was tough for me to have to watch the kick in front of everyone, but then you fast-forward five years and we held the ball [against France] for five minutes 20 [seconds] or something, through a certain amount of phases [41], at the end of a game in a stadium where we had rarely won. And you get to finish it with a kick. So one starts with a kick [the defeat to New Zealand], and one finishes with a kick, and the reactions are the complete opposite. So in that photo you mentioned from Paris, I've got five of my good friends running towards me, whereas in the aftermath of the Aviva it felt.

PK: Like everybody was running away.

JS: Well, they weren't. They would have supported me, 'Don't worry about it, but PK: So that's the moment, is it? Paris? You're only allowed one.

JS: Well, I would say the Grand Slam in the Aviva Stadium was up there - captain; last game in the Six Nations; getting the points scoring record for the tournament; doing it at home with my family there; having Luca old enough to understand what's going on ... that's very hard to beat.

PK: So the Grand Slam in Dublin?

JS: Yeah.

PK: We were talking earlier about another game in Paris - the Covid game when Andy Farrell pulled you off. I remember watching that game and looking at Andy Farrel thinking: I don't see anything in this guy. Hell be gone in six months.

JS: Yeah, there was probably a ... I don't think anyone saw us getting to where we did get to, except for us. I used to come into press conferences and say, Look we're on the right track, but it was like going from playing a certain way, and then just flipping it fully and going to a totally different way of playing, and thinking, and managing people. And that's not to say one is right and one is wrong, that's just what happened. Like, sometimes I feel bad praising Faz so much because it's...

PK: Taken as a criticism of Joe?

JS: Yeah, and it's not. Joe did things that no other coach has done. He won back-to-back championships, a Grand Slam. He won European Cups, leagues... he's a genius. I mean, he's an absolutely brilliant coach, a brilliant person, and I feel he gets judged sometimes by that six-month bad period that we had.

PK: What happened? Is it just that the magic fades?

JS: Maybe. I don't know. I've looked back myself and thought, Why did we not put that right?' But my point is that Andy comes in and changes everything, but he was also clever enough halfway through the cycle to say, 'OK, we're missing something. Lets bring Paul O'Connell in. And Paulie is like, Joe junior.

PK: Really?

JS: I thought I was Joe's biggest fan, but Paulie would fight me for it. So he then brought back some of the fundamentals, so now they have the perfect team. You've got the best of Joe in there with Paulie, and great characters like John Fogs [Fogarty] and Simon [Easterby]. So he's put together a great team of coaches, and he's obviously... like I said in the book, I've not seen a coach that has it all in the way that he does.

PK: You said he transferred ownership of the team back to the players, and I'm just looking for that amazing stat... you win 27 out of 29 games!

JS: Yeah, it was a great run, and the best Irish team I've been part of. I wish we had a World Cup to show for it but that would be the only regret.

PK: OK, let's go to the World Cup and finish where it ends - here in the kitchen a few days later when you're trying to process it all and post a message on Instagram.

JS: Yeah.

PK: And that was Laura's suggestion?

JS: Well, I was getting all these messages, letters to the IRFU, messages on social me-dia, so she said, You have to acknowledge in some way. The other option was to write to every single person.

PK: And the challenge, I guess, is to summarise it all.

JS: Yeah, I tried to sum up my career and the people that had helped me. And the journey, the four years, that the team had gone on with Andy.

PK: And that's not easy.

JS: No, it's not. Even the World Cup in itself, I say it in the book, four years ago, when we set out, our thing was to inspire the nation. I remember Andy showing us videos of homecomings... the Olympians... the soccer team coming home from Italia '90 and getting a bus tour through Dublin. He was saying, 'Imagine if we did this! Imagine if we won!' And we fully believed we could, but I was criticised for the last line.

PK: "We lost, but we won."

JS: Yeah, and I was a bit taken aback because I thought I had explained the [context]. We set out to inspire the nation, and it was clear from the scenes we witnessed in Paris that we did inspire the nation. And from the aftermath when you met people.

PK: How excited they were?

JS: Yeah, you'd swear we did win it from the way people were reacting. So we achieved that, but we didn't win. And yeah, would I have said it if I wasn't retired? Probably not. But when you do retire? What do these people that criticised me want me to do? Drag it around with me? Slate the team?

PK: Maybe the problem was trying to do it on Instagram. (I pick up the book) There's we lost but we won' right there, 409 pages. That's all of it.

JS: Yeah, but I had to do it in a split second.

PK: You didn't have to do it.

JS: No, but I wanted to do it, and I thought it was the right thing to do. What was the other option? Say nothing.

PK: (Laughs) Sure.

JS: If I was still playing, I'd have got straight back into it: Right, I'm going to use this disappointment to fuel the next four years. But I didn't have that.

PK: Here's another line you wrote that set me thinking: "What I found interesting about the exercise was how it forced me to think about things in a broader context. Stuff like: how do you want to be remembered?" I was in Wentworth last week and I said it to Rory:

"How do you want to be remembered?"

JS: What did he reply?

PK: He said he hadn't really thought about it, and I said, "Yeah, me neither. But I've been thinking about it since and here's what I'd say: I would want to be remembered in the way that you remember your grandparents.

I would want my kids to think of me the way that you think of them. I think that's the only thing that matters.

JS: Yeah, it is. But as a sportsperson you also want to be remembered that was a big motivating thing for me.

PK: Was it?

JS: Well, for 15 years probably, I always thought it was about the medals and the trophies and the accolades - and it is in many ways. They're the things you can point to that don't require an opinion: You think I was crap? Fine. But I was part of a team that won this. I was used to watching Man United winning league after league and idol-ised those guys because of it. But the longer I played the more I thought, What good is it if, at the end of your career, your teammates didn't reflect well on you?' And that became more important.

PK: Really?

JS: Yeah. Like, I still had the motivation - it was only a year ago I wanted to win a fifth European Cup, so it was still there. But how you got there was important as well.

PK: And you're happy?

JS: (Laughs) Yeah, you look back and just try to feel grateful. I was part of great teams, great coaches, great people, and made great friends. So that's amazing. Am I happy with my career? There are parts of me that wish I could go back and win something else, and other parts that I mean, if you'd sat me down when I was getting my first cap at 24 and said, You can have this', I'd have snapped your hand off."

I remember saying Doris should be the next captain around 8 months ago or so and there were lots disagreeing. It surprised me because as said above he's been captain at every level he's played at and he's a real professional who never gets too upset which is exactly what you want in a captain.