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OPW and projected cost of 442K for Modular Homes

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Comments

  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 26,158 Mod ✭✭✭✭CramCycle


    My partner was looking at renting the old AIB on Baggot St for work, pipped by the HSE who outbid everyone substantially and paid hugely over market rents a few years ago. It was mental. You should look up who owns it and who their kid is married to if you want to get really annoyed.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 941 ✭✭✭Baba Yaga


    are they planning to put in a security hut too?

    yo! donnie vonredactedpants,vlad putin,benji netanyahu,vic orban..you sirs are the skidmarks on the jocks of humanity!!!



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 26,158 Mod ✭✭✭✭CramCycle


    Also, really simply, why not buy mobile homes. Underlying infrastructure would have been the same cost but new mobiles are very nice, well insulated, cheap to run. Would have brought the cost down by 75% to get luxury ones, and they would have had some market value after the fact in a few years.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 941 ✭✭✭Baba Yaga


    sure shtick in an awl security hut too there while your at it

    yo! donnie vonredactedpants,vlad putin,benji netanyahu,vic orban..you sirs are the skidmarks on the jocks of humanity!!!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,106 ✭✭✭Jellybaby_1


    If someone could get hold of the spec. for one modular home. Then find a quantity surveyor to price it, then we'd know what the true price of building one should be, whether lower or not. The figure would have to show a separate cost for labour building it, and also the purchase of the land to build it on. According to https://www.rte.ie/brainstorm/2024/0905/1427931-ireland-building-costs-new-houses/ a 3-bed in greater Dublin costs €461,000. How do these modular homes compare with a 3-bed house? Would they have the same space, facilities etc? Would be interesting to know.



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  • Administrators, Social & Fun Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 78,484 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Beasty


    Threads merged



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 983 ✭✭✭StormForce13


    Just look at footnote b in post # 15 above. The expenditure was approved by Rodders O'Gormless who knows about as much about construction costs as I know about playing blow football with my backside.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,147 ✭✭✭Floppybits


    Didn't the Department of Health move into the Old BOI HQ on Baggot street?

    Government departments and local authorities are out bidding businesses and also people in all walks of life. Just look at the Local Authorities buying up houses at the expense of people looking to purchase a home. To me the Government departments, Civil and Public sectors are like the wild west and you can bet FF and FG will do nothing to reign them in. They really don't care until there is blow back on them.

    The only way really to stop this waste of money is to punish the government at the ballot box and keep doing it till they get the message that it is not acceptable.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,304 ✭✭✭Emblematic


    Is it possible though for the ordinary person to get planning permission for one?



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 26,158 Mod ✭✭✭✭CramCycle


    Sorry, it was BOI. Rented it, my partners company offered the going rate plus extra for a fairly long lease and contingencies for inflation to increase rent over time. DoH (not HSE) came in and outbid them by 2X the market rate, with several staff giving out due to the location making a commute a f*cking nightmare. Absolute madness, rented from a man who should have been jailed, and would have been if he was someone else for his behaviour during the BSE crisis.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,085 ✭✭✭✭Del2005


    Yes, there's loads of modular homes that are fully compliant with planning and building regulations.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,753 ✭✭✭celtic_oz


    How on earth can the solicitors that work for the Government not create a tender for a contract that stipulates that there is a FIXED cost for the end product, any cost over runs have to be borne by the supplier.

    There always seems to be an open ended cheque book where the supplier is protected from any cost overruns and the state has to bear the "unexpected" costs ?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 27,954 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    Because tenderers won't bid for a contract of any size or duration on the basis of a fixed price, with no contingencies in which it can be increased. They'd be mad to; they'd be running the risk of bankruptcy every time they accepted a public contract.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,753 ✭✭✭celtic_oz


    So this has been tried multiple times resulting in lots of failed tenders? Do you remember the headline .. Government tenders for €1 billion fixed price hospital and there were NO bidders ???

    Anyway if this happened, it should initiate a second round of sliding scale tenders where the risk was shared, firstly 90% of the risk on the supplier .. if that tender failed 80% risk for the supplier etc etc

    That way the winning supplier is enticed to keep costs low, the alternative encourages the supplier to INCREASE costs.

    A supplier ALWAYS has to account for contingency in a private job, if they cant estimate properly they are inept and go bankrupt, public tenders SHOULD be no different IMO.

    Look at this example of a dutch wind power supplier in America, where it got its math wrong and had to take a €472 million loss on the project forcing its CFO and COO to step down

    "The company behind the giant Hornsea windfarms off the Yorkshire coast said the construction delay would contribute to an impairment cost of 3.2bn Danish kroner ($472m) in its second-quarter financial results. Within weeks of laying bare the company’s financial turmoil, its chief financial officer, Daniel Lerup, and chief operating officer, Richard Hunter, agreed to step down with immediate effect because the company needed “new and different capabilities”."

    In Ireland we would have cut a cheque and pushed a hand wringing politician in front of the public to explain how it could never have been forseen that the M50 would get so busy etc etc

    Post edited by celtic_oz on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 27,954 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    Private commercial building contracts also include contingency provisions under which the price may (and does) increase. This is absolutely standard in commercial construction contracting.

    The difference, as already pointed out, is that in the public procurement system tenderers are encouraged — required, even — to load as much as possible into the contingency provisions in order to have the lowest possible headline price on the tender.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,753 ✭✭✭celtic_oz


    You say that like Moses ordained the practice and sure lets throw our hands in the air and continue that way.

    The American tax payer was protected in the example I gave above and theres no reason we can't do that here.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 27,954 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    Construction contracts always have contingency provisions. That's just the global market practice, and there's nothing the Irish government can do about it. And on the face of it it's not unreasonable; why would you expect a building company to insure you against the financial consequences of a pandemic in China or a blockage of the Suez Canal?

    In the example you give the construction firm lost out because they didn't have the right contingency clause for the event which occurred. That was their stuff-up, which is why the senior management had to resign. There is nothing the Irish government can do to force tenderers to stuff up in that fashion.

    What governments could do is take a tougher line on negotiating contingency clauses — e.g. "we won't agree to a contingency clause that lets you put up the price if labour costs rise by more than 3%; you have to bear the risk of wage inflation up to 10%". And then a tough negotiation follows. And similarly with contingencies about the price of other inputs, etc.

    Note that this would result in less cost overruns (or, at least, cost overruns of smaller amounts) but it wouldn't necessarily mean cheaper buildings — the tender price will be higher to start with if the tenderer has to carry more risk. If he has to stick to the contract price if his costs rise by 10%, then he's going to set a contract price that will still give him an acceptable profit if costs rise by 10%.

    The sordid truth is that politicians prefer tenders with low headline prices at the expense of large cost overruns; when you want to announce the project, or budget for it, it helps to be able to quote the low, low price that you have negotiated. So they have no particular incentive to change the system.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,862 ✭✭✭✭NIMAN


    Was not the least bit surprised to see the final cost of these double. It seems to be the norm lately.

    From now on, if the OPW get a quote for any job, they should immediately add between 50% and 100% on to the estimate, that way if it comes in under budget, they can publicise it and take the praise. And if it costs the quote+X%, then they can say it came in on budget.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 8,117 ✭✭✭plodder


    I've used a contract like that myself. Contingencies are real and often result in some level of increased cost. But, what you are describing is different.

    You're saying that the client (ie public servants, and their political bosses) are conspiring with contractors to rip off the tax payer by deliberately underestimating the headline price, at the cost of seriously unpredictable contingency. If you have evidence of this, why don't you send it to The Ditch, or someone else in the media?

    I can understand a contractor wanting to do it, but no rational client spending their own money would want it. The client is going to want as much of the project covered by a fixed price, and as little as possible as contingency.

    “Fanaticism is always a sign of repressed doubt” - Carl Jung



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,612 ✭✭✭twinytwo


    Do you honestly think if any of the other parties were in charge there would suddenly be accountability?

    You clearly have very little understanding of how government/public service works.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,619 ✭✭✭fliball123


    Thats not really the kind of question to be answered we all know its the perma gov doing this not the people elected and something has to change. Going forward the OPW, HSE and other state dept and semi states that are in control of public monies need to be held accountable the best way to do that is by changing the law that if the minister who is directly in charge of this spend (and there is one who is supposed to be looking over different pots of public monies) would lose their pensions up to the amount of monies wasted we would see a drastic change in attituded same goes with the employee within these un-elected bodies if their pension and job for life were someway in peril if it was found they recklessly spent without any care for value for money it would put some manners on them.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,132 ✭✭✭creedp


    No doubt the perma Govt aid and abet their political masters but to suggest the poor little nieve Minister doesn't know what their Depts staff are spending the money on is either equally nieve or deliberately giving a pass to the politicians



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,619 ✭✭✭fliball123


    I doubt they have their fingers on the pulse for day to day their main objective is to be re-elected not the day to day. This I believe is part of the issue. The minister blames the perma gov and the perma gov blame the minister both have plausible deniability and blame cannot be squarely put on either party. There needs to be a firming up of the process with the line minister who is in charge of their spend signing off on all expenditure and if they don't bother looking at it and it turns out say the OPW pay 2 million for a clothes line (you never know they might pay 3 million for it) then their pension is up for grabs. This would leave the minister on the hook responsible and financially at a loss if they don't do their job correctly.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,126 ✭✭✭db


    Price Variations in construction are nothing new. Each skilled and non-skilled job in the sector has an hourly rate and a claim can be made for any increase sanctioned throughout the contract. The same for materials, the tender will specify the price for each material used in the project and any increase over the tender price has to be agreed. Price variation claims should be calculated each month and submitted along with the monthly valuation before payment is made.

    This is standard practice for a QS so while increases will happen they should be similar to the rate of inflation and have a full paper trail. Variations of 100% that are not itemised are not normal in properly managed construction projects.

    Post edited by db on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 27,954 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    Sure. I'm not saying that there are no problems in the Irish public procurement process. Just that (a) the public procurement process is pretty much engineered to ensure that there will be cost overruns; and (b) it isn't realistic to think of solving this problem by insisting on fixed-price tenders.

    We don't know, SFAIK, to what extent the blowouts in the children's hospital or in this modular home contract are a product of this design feature, and to what extent they are attributable to other factors. We also don't know to what extent they are or are not itemised. Most of the public discourse concentrates on the aggregate amount of the blowout and there is little or no discussion of how it has been caused. This may be because polticians/the public service think that such an analysis would embarrass them, or because critics are more interested in generating outrage than in understanding and addressing the problem, or it could be a bit of both.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 27,954 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    I'm not saying that at all. There is no conspiracy here. This is a systemic problem — i.e a problem with the system itself, not with bad actors abusing the system. I'm saying:

    • The system is engineered in a way that maximised the number and volume of cost overruns.
    • This is because avoiding cost overruns was not a priority when the system was designed. The priority was (and is) avoiding favouritism, ensuring a level playing field and maximising value for money.
    • Tenderers are used to the system and it has certain advantages for politicians. Plus, it largely acheives its priority objectives of avoiding favouritism and corruption, and ensuring a level playing field. So there has been no great motivation to change the system. (This may change with increased public attention being paid to the number and amount of cost overruns — the political advantages of a low headling tender price may be outweighed by the political detriment of public anger at cost overruns.)

    As for no rational client wanting this, the question here is the allocation of risk. One side or other in this contract has to bear the risk of events that neither side controls. In public procurement the State, because of its vastly larger financial resources and much longer time-frame is, rationally speaking, better positioned to bear those risks than the service provider is. So an allocation of risk more to the client and less to the service provider is, theoretically speaking, likely to be the optimal outcome. For that reason alone you would expect cost overruns in public procurement to occur more frequently, and to be larger, than in private procurement — and that's before you consider the effect of the procurement system design.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,126 ✭✭✭db


    Any public projects I worked on (many years ago tbf) allowed for price variations for agreed increases in materials and labour prices. Every claim had to be based on actual work done in the time period being claimed for. The Bill of Quantities itemises every minute detail of a project so accurate accounts can be prepared on a monthly basis. If the project sticks closely to the original tender, the final price should be reasonably predictable based on tender price plus variations.

    The problem with the children's hospital has been scope creep. The detail of every space in the building was not complete at the tender stage so every change to the spec leads to a dispute over a claim by the contractor.

    It is like a massive episode of Grand Designs. Instead of a simple square block of a design, any picture I have seen of the hospital shows lots of curves and fancy design features which may be nice to look at but cost a fortune to build and take twice as long as expected but add nothing to it's function as a hospital.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 8,117 ✭✭✭plodder


    I'd agree with you that the public tender system is designed to avoid the appearance even of corruption and favouritism and it probably achieves that largely. Though, the public belief that the system is corrupt remains widespread. Which looks like the worst of both worlds.

    Your other points are moot until we know what kind of contract this was. The bike shed was done as part of a framework agreement. I saw it suggested that this was part of the same agreement. But, that was on Twitter and I believe nothing I read on that platform until I see it confirmed somewhere else.

    There's a bit more detail in the RTE report below on the actual problems encountered which looks more like with the sites rather than the units themselves. They found Japanese Knotweed at the Cork site, which is a very expensive problem to eradicate. Also, unrealistic deadlines seems to be a notable feature.

    I think there's two separate issues with this project. First, the problems with site selection and preparation. That has nothing to do with modular homes, but it could be an issue going forward with developing state owned brown field sites, even with conventionally built houses.

    Second, the modular units themselves. How widely did they investigate their options? The fact they selected units with only a low BER rating doesn't inspire much confidence. Digressing a bit now but I'd still think that modular homes could have a role to play for social housing - maybe not permanently, but as a stage between effective homelessness living in a hotel or B&B and "proper" conventionally constructed housing. It would be a shame if the problems with the state owned sites, and overly rushed projects, rather than inherent problems with modular units was the real cause of the problem here.

    https://www.rte.ie/news/business/2024/0308/1436786-modular-home-costs/

    “Fanaticism is always a sign of repressed doubt” - Carl Jung



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 27,954 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    Sure. I'm not defending anyone's performance on the hospital contract. But on a very large project like that, that will take years to execute, especially in a high-tech area, design changes along the way are pretty much inevitable — e.g. as a response to developments in medical technology, or changes in medical practice, or even demographic or epidemiological changes in the population to be served, resulting in a change to the needs that the hospital will have to meet.

    Hospitals are always tricky because even a very basic, functional, non-fancy design of a hospital is full of non-standard features — e.g. standard-sized doors just don't work in a hospital; you need doors that can accommodate the movement of hospital beds plus associated equipment. The diagnostic imaging suite needs floors capable of bearing the weight of the lead shielding involved. Negative pressure rooms, which all hospitals will need, are a nightmare to design. A piped oxygen supply requires all kinds of structural modifications for fire safety reasons. Etc, etc. And, since the project takes years to execute, even if you have planned and costed all this correctly at the outset you will need to make changes along the way, as new requirements are identified.

    None of that is to say that there aren't serious problems on this particular project. But I wouldn't take this particular project as emblematic of general problems with public construction contracts in Ireland. Hospital construction is a world of its own.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 27,954 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    I'd agree with you that the public tender system is designed to avoid the appearance even of corruption and favouritism and it probably achieves that largely. Though, the public belief that the system is corrupt remains widespread. Which looks like the worst of both worlds.

    Nitpick: The worst of both worlds would be if the system was widely perceived as corrupt and was in fact corrupt. If you have to have one of these evils, then obviously having a system that's just perceived as corrupt is better than having a system that is actually corrupt.

    If we could rejig the system so that tenders were realistically priced to begin with, and suffered from fewer and smaller cost overruns, then we'd have a system that was honest, and seen to be honest. But inevitably someone, somewhere, would write an article pointing out that tender prices had risen hugely, compared with what they were a few short years ago, and darkly hinting that Vested Interests and Golden Circles were behind this.



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