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Property and inheritance taxes should be raised, says State’s commission on tax and welfare

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,327 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    Then why not tax money just resting in a bank account? Also near impossible to avoid. They already come close to that with DIRT, a completely unjustifiable tax that I don't believe any other OECD country has. And even more mind blowing than a tax that shouldn't exist is this mob of highly paid socialists recommending that it should be increased.

    Taxing wealth is truly weird and wrong. It doesn't grow on tax-free trees. People with high incomes are already taxed a lot more than any other earners. There already is significant CAT to prevent people from gaining wealth from gifts and the death of relatives. If they make money from investments, like buying and selling shares and assets, that too already attracts the 4th highest CGT rate in the world.

    The money to purchase houses with is already taxed highly. If you build a house the inputs are all considerably cost inflated with government/council charges, inflating by 32.8%, the cost of building a house in Dublin. Now tax the final product as well for a third hit.

    Arguing it's to fund needy local councils I don't buy either. Some of the stuff I see my local council do with the property and vehicle taxes it already receives annoys me. There was perfectly good and serviceable concrete foot paths and paving, so they wasted an absolute bomb tearing it all up and putting down pavers in its stead, which with Ireland's damp algae and lichen growing climate will all look like blackened concrete before long.

    A shopping centre was built a while back. To compliment it they built an extremely expensive waist high, dark, hard stone wall next to it and for some distance further past. Probably at least 600m of it or more. They were at building those walls a long time. They must have spent enough to pay for the construction of several social houses out of stone, and a few more had it been cheaper materials. Then a few years later, they come along and tear half of it down.

    Gob smacking wasting of money. The don't need more. I strongly suspect they are knowingly wasting money on make-work in order to justify keeping some employees on the payroll instead of trimming the excess.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 434 ✭✭bluedex


    They have use it or lose it budgets, hence wasteful spending. Don't get me started on the inefficiencies of fixed annual budgets...

    Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 434 ✭✭bluedex


    Apologies that post was in the context of property taxes, not CAT.

    Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,298 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    Where was the shopping centre wall please? Councils don’t generally build walls around private developments.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,327 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    Civil services are a self perpetuating cancer, always trying to get bigger. We need more staff, if only we had more staf - currently the legal system wants more judges - at €500,000 a pop - and ABP want more. Simple, amend the overly restrictive planning laws and job done. Same for the legal system. Try buying or selling a house in Australia vs this hole, or acting as an executor there vs here.

    I worked in a civil service for a while. Every year, the managers and directors would rush around buying new photocopiers, computers, laptops and anything else that could be thought of, and woe betide any manager that didn't spend every last cent of their annual budget.

    There is no need for higher taxes, while there is a crying need to downsize the public sector, reduce waste and increase efficiency.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,327 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    The wall was adjacent, between the shopping centre and main road, not encircling it, and it extended far beyond. Then they came and tore down the bit between the shopping centre and road a few years later. Nenagh.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,475 ✭✭✭✭kippy


    What kind of percentage top line savings do you think are viable?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,327 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 24,653 ✭✭✭✭Cookie_Monster


    Why should DIRT not exist? Its just a tax on the additional interest income, not the principal... Its a way of caputing unearend income that otherwise would have to be disclosed by everyone doing tax returns personally rather than the PAYE system that simplifies things for the majority of people.

    "Then why not tax money just resting in a bank account? Also near impossible to avoid. They already come close to that with DIRT, a completely unjustifiable tax that I don't believe any other OECD country has. And even more mind blowing than a tax that shouldn't exist is this mob of highly paid socialists recommending that it should be increased."

    NZ has RWT, up to 33% of interest earned is deducted at source.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,327 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    RWT is not a fixed rate, it's based on your income and marginal tax rate and I have nothing against that. Dirt is a fixed rate and has been 41% for everyone, irrespective of income and marginal tax rate. Now it's 33%, but this committee is recommending it be increased again. The NZ RWT has the same effect as how Australia does it, which is the way it should be done - you declare your interest as income in your tax return and then it gets taxed at your marginal rate. RWT has the same effect, but it's doing it the hard way.

    Post edited by cnocbui on


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,585 ✭✭✭Viscount Aggro


    I can a lot more cash transactions in the future.

    Example - in Rathkeale, property transactions are done partly in cash, avoids a lot of stamp duty and other transaction costs, and keeps price low.



  • Posts: 391 ✭✭ [Deleted User]


    You think this is some kind of slam dunk, don't you? In reality it's just smug and naive.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,179 ✭✭✭✭zell12


    Rich folk are buying farmland to store wealth as it is a tax-efficient way to pass on inheritance. Is this true?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,685 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    https://www.revenue.ie/en/gains-gifts-and-inheritance/cat-reliefs/agricultural-relief/index.aspx

    Overview

    If you receive a gift or an inheritance of agricultural property, you may qualify for Agricultural Relief. This relief reduces the taxable value of the property, including land, by 90%. The relief is subject to certain conditions.

    If the agricultural property comprised in your gift or inheritance does not qualify for Agricultural Relief, it may qualify for Business Relief.

    What are the conditions for Agricultural Relief?

    To qualify for Agricultural Relief as a farmer, the value of your agricultural property must consist of at least 80% of your total property value on the valuation date. This is called the ‘Farmer Test’. This does not apply where agricultural property consists only of trees and underwood. 

    For gifts and inheritances taken after 1 January 2015, where the valuation date is also on or after 1 January 2015 you must:

    • farm the agricultural property on a commercial basis for at least six years from that date
    • or
    • lease the property to someone who farms the agricultural property on a commercial basis for at least six years from that date.

    The above requirements are known as the 'Active Farmer Test'.

    Additionally, the person receiving the gift or inheritance, or the person leasing the property must either:

    • have an agricultural qualification (as listed in Schedule 2, 2A or 2B of the Stamp Duties Consolidation Act 1999)
    • or
    • farm the agricultural property for at least 50% of his or her normal working hours.
    • Mary owns a house (valued at €80,000) with a mortgage (€20,000), a car (€5,000), and a bank deposit account (€2,000). Her house is not a farmhouse. She receives a gift of farmland (€300,000), plus livestock and farm machinery (€50,000). Is Mary a 'farmer' for the purpose of Agricultural Relief?Example of Agricultural ReliefAssetAgricultural PropertyAll PropertyHouse €60,000Car €5,000Bank Deposit €2,000Farmland€300,000€300,000Livestock & Machinery€50,000€50,000Total€350,000€417,000The gross market value of Mary's assets after receiving the gift is €417,000; the gross market value of her agricultural assets is €350,000. (€350,000/€417,000) x 100 = 83.9%.Therefore Mary is a 'farmer' for the purposes of the Relief.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,853 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    its the ultimate green eyed tax for normal people , most peoples normal assets ,a family home a couple of bank accounts represent a life time of not being an idiot or an alcoholic , loyal to their partner , thinking of their kids . Do whatever you can to sidestep the rules or at least take advantage of them if you can

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,649 ✭✭✭Mr. teddywinkles


    Theyll come a time it wont be worth working here. Everyone should down tools and tell them to politely go **** themselves.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 193 ✭✭whatever.


    No, fearmongering from Alan Shatter et al. He's doing a good job of playing up to stereotype too.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 2,932 ✭✭✭PommieBast


    That's pretty much what is happening in the tech MNCs. Not that long ago I had an interview for a company in central Dublin and worked out it is not worth relocating for under €100k.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,255 ✭✭✭Jizique


    Really hard to down tools but the current system is a farce, particularly for the increasing number of childless - better off selling the house before death



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 10,126 ✭✭✭✭893bet


    There is agri relief on a farm same as business relief of on a business to allow it be transferred. There has to be. If not the then the person receiving it would have a massive tax bill requiring the business be sold or a loan to pay the tax that could cripple it and bring the business under.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 2,932 ✭✭✭PommieBast


    Crazy thing is in the past I could claim non-domicile status should a parent croak (father is 82..) but ever since getting Irish citizenship the potential tax liabilities of living in Ireland are too much.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 10,126 ✭✭✭✭893bet


    Yet the “have nots” are jumping up and down about some people being able to get a deposit from their parents.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,014 ✭✭✭silliussoddius


    I don’t understand why some people can’t see this.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,340 ✭✭✭Ubbquittious


    They are dying to give Apple back their 13bn but ordinary people need to pay more every year to live in the house they already paid for



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,337 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump


    It would be possible to modify the tax to still serve the original purpose, but to make it more difficult to be taken advantage of cynically.

    My suggestion, which I posted on here before, would be to have an "equity" stake in the land for the State which decreases over time (and resets upon death to the next beneficiary)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,685 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    Annual property taxes are the most sensible taxes.

    Practically all modern societies have an annual property tax.

    It is typically a local tax.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,337 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump


    Well no. Property taxes do somewhat mitigate (or at least make more difficult) the passing on of multi-generational wealth by the wealthy and super rich. In that sense they are progressive.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 28,074 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    Huh? Property taxes are taxes on accumulated wealth. As such, they are generally highly progressive. The man of no property pays no property tax.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,853 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    A bit clinical to describe what might be just a family home in Dublin, if the family home was treated like a farm it might be closer to the truth

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,327 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    People who believe there should be "taxation of accumulated wealth" and that such a thing is "progressive", annoy me.

    It's an attitude that the state should be able to just take money from individuals - it's never leveled at companies like Apple, or Google - whenever it feels like. The accumulation part of this wealth you so casually talk of is already taxed comprehensively. Why should property be taxed because it's accumulated wealth, any more than an accumulation of wealth in a bank account, in a share investment portfolio or a vintage car collection, an art collection a pile of gold ingots, or wads of cash under a matress?

    When accumulated wealth gains in value, it is already taxed at 33% at the appropriate moment via CGT. Some people save all their lives for a pension to see them through their retirement years - this is based on accumulating wealth, lets tax that and let the old folk mind their pennies in retirement for being so foolish as to accumulate wealth.

    Accumulated wealth should not be taxed when there are so many other taxes - including the existing CGT of 33%, it's the very definition of double taxation. France has tried it and it resulted in a considerable net reduction in tax collected and harmed the economy in general.

    This tax wealth moral absudity reminds me of the GFC and talk of 'haircuts' of bank deposits, as was done in Cyprus .

    Go on all you socialist 'progressive' tax lovers, tax wealth and reap the 'benefits', just like France did:

    Capital flight since the ISF wealth tax’s creation in 1988 amounts to ca. €200 billion; The ISF causes an annual fiscal shortfall of €7 billion, or about twice what it yields; The ISF wealth tax has probably reduced GDP growth by 0.2% per annum, or around 3.5 billion (roughly the same as it yields); In an open world, the ISF wealth tax impoverishes France, shifting the tax burden from wealthy taxpayers leaving the country onto other taxpayers.

    Really progressive, that.

    Irish society views financial prudence and success as inherently immoral - it's nothing less than a collective mental illness.



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