Property and inheritance taxes should be raised, says State’s commission on tax and welfare

Modulok

Let's think about this in terms of disgust. A certain type of person finds it more disgusting that children should inherit wealth from their parents, than they do the idea of handing over that money to a bureaucracy which would happily spend it on a bike shed.

Wanderer78

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122635510#Comment_122635510

one of the main issues with our property markets is the fact, theres very few, if any policies in place to try stop its current hyper inflationary status, nearly all policies are attempting to 'keep the recovery going', i.e. keep inflating prices, no matter what, theres clearly a fundamental flaw in this thinking, we ve been here before, it doesnt end well!

…and disturbing fact with these facts is, our main governments parties dont see any issues with this, they dont have the awareness that this is exactly what theyre doing, theres no self-reflective capacity within our government, and the fact, there isnt going to be a significant change in government in ireland anytime soon, we now have to accept, your kids, grandkids, nieces and nephews are screwed, therefore we are all screwed……

…you may forget about your needs being met as you age, particularly in relation to your welfare(pension) and health care needs(elder care)…

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122635516#Comment_122635516

…and again, theres no evidence to support that leaving things as they are, creates better outcomes for most or all, none….

…yes governments will waste, but…

Peregrinus

one of the main issues with our property markets is the fact, theres very few, if any policies in place to try stop its current hyper inflationary status, nearly all policies are attempting to 'keep the recovery going', i.e. keep inflating prices, no matter what, theres clearly a fundamental flaw in this thinking, we ve been here before, it doesnt end well!

…and disturbing fact with these facts is, our main governments parties dont see any issues with this, they dont have the awareness that this is exactly what theyre doing, theres no self-reflective capacity within our government, and the fact, there isnt going to be a significant change in government in ireland anytime soon, we now have to accept, your kids, grandkids, nieces and nephews are screwed, therefore we are all screwed……

…you may forget about your needs being met as you age, particularly in relation to your welfare(pension) and health care needs(elder care)…

Ironically, overinflated house prices can serve as a mechanism for providing retirement income and covering elder care costs becuase (unless the bubble bursts) you can trade down to a less valuable property, thereby realising capital to pay living expenses or if your state of decay requires it you can sell the house and use the substantial equity in it to fund a move into a care home.

But it's not a very efficient mechanism; a huge amount of the capital tied up in housing is never used either for retirement income or for care costs. Plus, to the extent that it works at all, it only works so long as the bubble doesn't burst. Explicit retirement savings funds are a better way of meeting these needs.

mattser

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122635438#Comment_122635438

" Reducing inequality " Can you enlarge on this please ?

dulpit

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122635516#Comment_122635516

I personally think that until the services the government provide across the board are better (I'm thinking roads, I'm thinking carer's, disability services, schools, etc) then cutting a tax that will only affect people who are going to be in a financially good situation if it affects them makes no sense.

Increasing the threshold for this tax has to be paid from somewhere. And prioritising this when there are so many other situations that need fixing is immoral.

silverharp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122635438#Comment_122635438

the "intergerneralation wealth" argument is where the green eyed monster appears. next up reading to your kids , staying together as parents is white privilege or something to quote silly woke American arguments.

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122635687#Comment_122635687

Inequality, obviously, refers to disparities in wealth or income. There are various ways to measure it; a typical one is the ratio between those in the to 20% of income earners versus those in the bottom 20%, or those in the to 20% of property-owners versus those in the bottom 20%; you can measure this on an individual basis or on a household basis; etc, etc. But a society which is unequal when measured on one basis tends to be unequal when measured on the others as well, indicating that they are all particuar measures of a broader phenomenon.

Is inequality a bad thing? Broadly, yes, in that the more unequal a society is, the higher it tends to scoore on various measures of Bad Things — social exclusion, crime, poor health, poor or falling life expectancy, political instability, low economic opportunity (as in, it hard for an individual to better his economic situation through his own efforts).

(I should add that this is true regardless of how wealthy in absolute terms a society is. A rich country with a high level of inequality - the US, say — will tend have higher crime, lousier health, greater levels of social alienation, lower levels of social mobility, etc than a similarly wealthy society with a more equal distribution of wealth/income — Norway,say. And this hold good also for countries of average or below-average wealth. The correllation only breaks down for really poor countries, but most of them have very high levels of inequality anyway.)

OK. High levels of integenerational wealth transfer are associated with, and tend to entrench, high leves of inequality. People who are already relativedly economically advantaged — higher levels of education than average; in higher-earning and/or higher status jobs; have spouses who are also in higher-earning and/or higher status jobs; already have more than average capital — also do most of the inheriting, futher exacerbating their relative economic advantage by being given what is (for them) completely unearned wealth. And this trend, almost by definition, persists over generations. Which means that it becomes more and more difficult for those who don't start out with social and economic advantage to improve their situation; to move up the ladder of inequality, so to speak. And the more they are confined to the (relative) underclass, the more dissatisfied they feel; the poorer their health outcomes; the higher the likelihood that they will become involved in crime; etc. It's a vicious cycle.

I don't want to overstate the role inheritance plays in this. There are lots of things governments can do to tackle inequality. Some of them are bog-standard — free education is an obvious one, or a robust minimum wage, or a destributive income/social welfare system. Nearly all governments do these things to some extent. But tax and other policies that discourage the transmission of inherited wealth have been associated with a marked long-term increase in social mobility over the generations (i.e. a good chance that my children will do better in life than I do) and a reduction in inequality.

StupidLikeAFox

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122635454#Comment_122635454

If an only child inherited a 500k house they would be liable for 44k in taxes, for something their parents may have paid 75k for 30 years ago. Certainly not extreme wealth, and hard to feel sorry for anyone in that situation

Nermal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122632287#Comment_122632287

It's a sign of how deeply and totally the left have captured academia that even in economics inherently biased labels like 'progressive' and 'regressive' have been adopted. It's not just a technical term. It's an unsubtle way of framing the argument: from each according to his ability, to each according to his needs.

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122636805#Comment_122636805

"Progressive" in the tax policy sense has been current in the English language since the 1790s, before the terms "left" and "right" had acquired any political connotations. It's a sign of how deeply unconfident the right is in their own positions that anything that makes them uncomfortable is immediately blamed, without evidence or argument, on a supposed monolithic "left", so that they can dismiss it without the embarrassment of having to actually examine or engage with it.

Vestiapx

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122635438#Comment_122635438

Just no

There are multiple ways of tra sharing wealth into a format that won't be taxed on transfer

mattser

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122635994#Comment_122635994

I'll quite happily pass on my hard earned ( and taxed ) wealth to my children, who are working hard at their own careers. I'm asking Govt to lighten the burden a little re. threshod/tax rate. I also take time in the charity sector to improve inequality and social mobility.

dulpit

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122640712#Comment_122640712

You've paid tax on your wealth. Your children haven't. Why should they get a tax free lump sum income?

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122640712#Comment_122640712

Their burden is light already.

Mr. teddywinkles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122641003#Comment_122641003

Huh?. Why u say that. So 335000e threshold with house prices increasing 10% artificially by end of this year alone is non burdensome not even considering 20 years from now and taking inflation into account.

An awful lot of dudes on here that need that chip on their shoulder cheaked out. And "their" meaning is multiple persons.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122641075#Comment_122641075

335k tax free is an utterly ridiculous amount of money that you can get tax free already. The average person getting inheritance these days is using it as a boon to retire early, not as a step onto the housing ladder.

Also "their" can be singular or plural and I have no idea what that has to do with anything. You can leave a million quid to 3 children and none of them will pay anything in tax.

Mr. teddywinkles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122641090#Comment_122641090

Does multiple siblings inherit family home. Shared inheritance. You said their so im assuming as much. Its robbery plain and simple. If you think the really wealthy will pay this high percentage. Your in lala land. Avoidace will always be found. And it aint the guy that bought a house in the 70s for 35000e now worth 500000e because the market says so.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122641230#Comment_122641230

Each sibling gets their own tax free allowance.

The guy who bought a house in the 70s pays nothing cause he is dead.

Geuze

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122641090#Comment_122641090

Are you saying that the 335k CAT-free category A lifetime allowance is high enough already?

Mr. teddywinkles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122641280#Comment_122641280

No hes still working 9 to 5 to pay it. Working from home as well. He downsized and very small. Prime realestate in the the graveyard 🙄

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122641345#Comment_122641345

I'm open to it being slightly higher, but I think its broadly fine yeah.

If it is people living in their parent's property they already have other tax exemptions.

BrianD3

I've paid about 200k in CAT so far and think the current thresholds are about right. I don't object to paying the money but to what is done with the money. This state would need two of me to build a bike shelter at Leinster House - and it's a certainty that this debacle is only the tip of the iceberg in terms of how taxpayers' money is wasted or even worse, paid to the private sector in a corrupt manner.

Also, the reason I paid 200k in CAT is because i inherited money from relatives who died prematurely having worked hard and saved all their lives. Why did they die prematurely? Because of incompetence of management and staff in Irish public hospitals. My relatives are dead but salaries and pensions of HSE staff responsible will still be paid by taxpayers such as me.

Potatoeman

Between the children’s hospital, the Dail bike shed and RTE you’d want your head examined if you think giving the current shower of gobshites more money to squander filling their mates pockets is a good idea.

dulpit

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122646235#Comment_122646235

It pays for the roads. It pays for the schools. It pays for my parents pensions. It pays for my son's limited disability services. It pays for his mother's carer's.

Potatoeman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122646483#Comment_122646483

They’ll come up with some excuses not to do any of that with the extra income, it’ll find it’s way into their mates pockets.

Mr. teddywinkles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122646483#Comment_122646483

The state of the secondary roads around the country. Id beg to differ on that now.

dulpit

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122646627#Comment_122646627

So the solution is to cut taxes and just hope for the best?

letsbefair

The money wasted in RTE is nothing compared to elsewhere but gets no publicity. A new high powered Value for Money independent body would more than pay for itself. I am happy to pay for services and infrastructure but hate waste and being ripped off. The people in the OPW (bike shed fiasco) would not waste their own money. Very easy when you are spending other peoples'. How come Spain can deliver infrastructure so efficiently and we can't. You need someone like Michael O'Leary questioning where all the billions are going. (I said like !)

Mr. teddywinkles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122646752#Comment_122646752

No Just tax the shite out of the general public and keep squandering it.

I didnt say cut but until people see real improvement and proper value for money by government departments. No extra taxes or rises should ever be considered. None.

dulpit

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122646795#Comment_122646795

This specific thread is people looking to get a tax cut to allow them acquire 500k or more tax free, which is bonkers.

I agree that more needs to be done to better spend the current tax take.