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French man accused of drugging his wife and inviting men to rape her

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,337 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump


    Strange that you don't think people dealing heroin have victims. Is that because the victims tend to come from poorer demographics and don't count for you? I think we've heard it all now if the selling of heroin is a victimless crime. Free the Kinahans!

    Way to go though with the inability to get the point. I suspect deliberately so.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,024 ✭✭✭✭volchitsa


    He's already pled guilty. It's the other accused who are pleading innocent. Some have even accused the huiband and wife of duping them. (I'm not sure if that got as far as becoming their actual defence, TBF - it may have been their explanation during the interrogation. You'd need to check the testimony on the first day, when each of the accused gave their plea.)

    ”I enjoy cigars, whisky and facing down totalitarians, so am I really Winston Churchill?” (JK Rowling)



  • Posts: 832 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Heroin addicts, while seeking self pleasure/satisfaction are not violating another human being in the act of obtaining it.*

    This is NOT an argument on the topic of substance abuse and it's correlates.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,024 ✭✭✭✭volchitsa


    That wasn't my claim though. Take it up with whoever said it. But nobody who is honest can pretend that becoming a heroin addict is comparable to becoming a rape victim. Nobody starts off thinking they can take or leave the rape, do they?

    Moreover, to be comparable to this particular case would require that the heroin addict had first been rendered unconscious before being involuntarily injected with heroin. I'm not aware of such a thing ever happening - are you?

    ”I enjoy cigars, whisky and facing down totalitarians, so am I really Winston Churchill?” (JK Rowling)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,337 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump


    Are you looking forward to getting all the gory details? I can't say I'd be interested in that myself. I won't be checking the testimony. The court can hear it and decide. It's their job.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,337 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump


    Yeah, again, deliberately being obtuse. How do you think you can flip a point against drug dealers by defending their victims?

    It would be like me coming on here and defending the husband by saying "rape victims don't hurt anyone". It's bizarre.

    Regardless, you appear fixated on an analogy you clearly didn't understand. Women going to a drug dealer for their fix are unlikely to report him for dealing drugs. Perverts going to another pervert to rape someone are unlikely to report him for doing what they planned together. That those women don't report the dealer cannot be reasonably extrapolated to some argument that all women are guilty of supporting heroin dealing. Or that it is a problem which other women need to fix. but you'll happily do the same extrapolation for the perverts to other men.

    The thing is guys, if you aren't happy with the men ba$tards in your own day-to-day lives, that's unfortunate, but it is something you can likely change. No need to hate half the population over it and allow it to seethe and fester in your own lives.



  • Posts: 832 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    The mind of a man attempting to minimise long term multiple gang rape by comparing it with someone looking to get high.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,346 ✭✭✭aero2k


    There's one big difference between the two groups that undermines your analogy: drug addicts in desperate need of a fix are probably not renowned for their rational / moral behaviour. We don't know if the rapists in this horrible case were also drug addicts, but if they are as " normal" as it appears, then at least the 30 who said " no thanks" but took no further action are guilty of facilitating the abuse, and have no morals.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,337 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump


    drug addicts in desperate need of a fix are probably not renowned for their rational / moral behaviour.

    Are there little bells ringing in your head now? A little lightbulb suddenly started to shine? Congratulations, you may be finally getting the point that people who frequent pervert chatrooms looking for victims to rape might also not be known for their moral behaviour and are not representative of the general population.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,337 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump


    The reason you are deliberately trying to mischaracterize and create a straw-man is that you have no actual argument in response and it is just annoying you and you are frustrated that you cannot answer it. So instead you are trying to create the strawman that you can answer. The more you do it, the more it highlights the fact.



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  • Posts: 832 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]




  • Posts: 832 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    I understand the issue people have with gender bashing, that's not what I am doing. I'm pointing out, in the simplest terms for people who don't understand, that rape is not of the order of taking drugs.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,337 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump


    Too close to the truth. You think you are "winning" something by responding and repeating, but all you are doing is highlighting it.

    Most normal people can understand that the analogy was merely a device to highlight that you cannot extrapolate from a self-selecting subset of people who seek out a specific illegal thing, to the general population. In the same way that one cannot extrapolate from perverts who seek out pervert chatrooms to the general population, one also cannot extrapolate from an addict seeking out a fix to the general population.

    If what you genuinely "understood" from the analogy was that raping someone is no worse then smoking a spliff, then there isn't much I can say to help you more.



  • Posts: 832 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]




  • Posts: 1,125 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    if you and the op and their types changed the message you might get less push back.

    1)How about violence is evil

    2)Rape is evil

    3)Anyone who participates in either is evil.

    That’s it.

    Or see post 2. That sums it up. The rest is really damaging angyy speak that cares for no one but their versions of what a women is. (Suggest you read thread bans for transgender issues

    But no the toxic thread title and the way the angry army is on here is why most people… say got away and **** off with your toxic shite



  • Posts: 832 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Oh I see. You want to make this a gender bashing thread. ok.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,220 ✭✭✭extra-ordinary_


    One of the ways to prevent men from committing rape is through changing legislation and increasing penalties and applying appropriate sentencing for men who commit rape, as there is evidence that reduces the number of men who believe they are able to commit rape and not be punished or prosecuted or convicted for it. These measures serve as a deterrent, not a complete solution by any means.

    What's your suggestion?

    These are the current sentencing guidelines

    " A rape which is carried out without violence or threats being used, attracts a sentence of 7 years before mitigating factors are taken into consideration.

    A rape which is carried out by using a greater amount of violence or intimidation than is normally associated with a rape offence; or involves a greater level of degradation of the victim; or involves an abuse of trust, attracts a sentence of 10 to 15 years before mitigating factors are taken into consideration.

    A term of imprisonment of life can apply if a rape is carried out with serious violence; or if the victim is subjected to greater humiliation than is normally associated with a rape offence; or if the victim is subjected to sexual perversion.

    Aggravating features in a rape case include: • abuse of trust by the person who committed the rape; • abuse of a position of authority or a position of dominance in a family; • planning the offence; • the involvement of more than one offender; • tricking a victim into a position of vulnerability; • taking advantage of a difference in age. People (DPP) v. Tiernan [1988] I.R. 250 and People (DPP) v. FE [2019] IESC 85 set out the sentencing guidelines for a rape offence."



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,725 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    they weren’t trying to be. Are you actually critically thinking about what they said there or just shutting down



  • Posts: 832 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Yes, I read what they said, no I don't agree with the false equivalences and strawman arguments. This is a poster deliberately setting up an argument for a case of male bashing in a thread about rape due to the original title. I didn't start the thread and not once have I made a case to suggest that all men are rapists. In fact you would see from my initial post quite the opposite. I won't continue to entertain someone attempting to project otherwise or portray that by post baiting.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,215 ✭✭✭✭ILoveYourVibes


    there is laughing in my head if you want to generalize about french men you have to generalize about all men….or do neither.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,215 ✭✭✭✭ILoveYourVibes


    This is not true. In fact one man stated after being accused by the police ' She is his wife he may do as he wishes with her'.

    They were also instructed on how not to leave forensic evidence. They were also instructed on how not to wake her or leave any trace of a scent like perfume aftershave or tobacco.

    And the police are not following the line of these men thought she was consenting. What silly idea?? To get consent you need to speak at least with the person you mean to carry out the act with. There is NO such thing as third party consent. They absolutely did not believe she had consented. And the fact some are suggesting this (not yourself i dont think you are ) truly shows what an uphill battle prosecuting rape is.

    They might have thought she had consented? Really?? Really??

    Did they ask to speak to her before hand? after?? Did they talk it through?

    Oh please.

    They knew 150 % they knew how wrong it was they knew how it could potentially kill a woman of her age. They know they knew .. everyting.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,725 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    then it is not true for one defendant, if the court determines to believe what he says



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,215 ✭✭✭✭ILoveYourVibes


    This just tells me you dont understand what legal consent is. No one can give it on your behalf. The idea men (not you) think you can use a woman's body because someone else said so… and that is consent.. is well daft.

    They never got HER consent. The onus is on THEM to get consent from her directly they didnt . THEY KNEW all of them.

    Your husband cannot pass on your consent for you. I mean he cant say to your doctor yeah she gives consent to have those breast implants or that operation.

    Only SHE can give consent and its not like chinese whispers. I mean you cant sign a contract for me and say .. well but she told me she agrees. COME ON.

    Do men think we women are stupid? They knew.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,725 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    woosh. You’ve completely misunderstood what I wrote.

    one defendant made that claim, which doesn’t rebut what DT was saying in the post you were replying to, for the rest of the men being referenced and what their attitudes were. This is not saying that their excuses have any legal validity, calm down.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,215 ✭✭✭✭ILoveYourVibes




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,215 ✭✭✭✭ILoveYourVibes


    These fu*king geniuses really thought they had committed the perfect crime.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,725 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    Many of them I’d say so yes probably thought they got away with the perfect crime; some of the men are reportedly delusional enough into thinking that they hadn’t committed a crime.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,215 ✭✭✭✭ILoveYourVibes


    We don't know what all men are. And we dont know what they are not.

    Most users are men. Most drug dealers are men. Most criminals in fact .. are men.

    Patterns of drug use, sales and trafficking are profoundly gendered. Most users, dealers and traffickers are men

    The data is here.

    https://www.swansea.ac.uk/media/Developing-drug-policy-gender-matters.pdf

    I had assumed it was common knowledge that most drug dealers were men? No .. women don't last in that world. Women dont last as criminals at all usually with some exceptions. Its a career where you need to be intimidating and physically strong.

    We dont know what all men are nor are not. We dont know what all women are or are not. Who knows what 99 % of people do in the shadows. We see only the surface.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,215 ✭✭✭✭ILoveYourVibes


    They acted like men who thought they had committed a crime tho. I mean they attempted to cover their tracks.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,725 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    let’s put some numbers to it, because it’s not like women are extremely rare to use drugs or be criminals, even while it is true that men generally have the lions share, so as not to generalize or “usually” this, here is the gender stats I found on drug use

    IMG_6038.png

    Probably noteworthy concern here, given the nature of this crime on topic, that women are basically on par with men in one category and it’s sedatives and tranquilizers 🫥

    the google AI also provided this: for some categories of crime women still make a significant figure, a 3rd of property crime a quarter of DUIs, nearly half of larcenies, etc

    Violent crimes: In 2019, men accounted for 78.9% of those arrested for violent crimes, and 88% of those arrested for murder and nonnegligent manslaughter. 

    Property crimes: In 2019, men accounted for 62.3% of those arrested for property crimes. 

    Drug abuse violations: In 2019, 74.6% of those arrested for drug abuse violations were men. 

    Larceny-theft: In 2019, 42.6% of those arrested for larceny-theft were women. 

    Aggravated assault: In 2019, 23.5% of those arrested for aggravated assault were women. 

    Driving under the influence: In 2019, 25.9% of those arrested for driving under the influence were women

    So it’s demonstrably misleading to allege that “women don’t last as criminals at all usually” or allege that you need to be eg. Intimidating and physically strong to commit crime generally which includes steal property or commit larceny/shoplifting; while it is reasonably fair to say the men make up a wide majority of drug trafficking (dealing and distribution) crime.



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