DART+ (DART Expansion)

bk · 04-09-2024 10:50AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122580692#Comment_122580692

In fairness to Irish Rail, they are trying to operate an overly complex network and system. That is why simplifying it and getting rid of DMU's on various lines and replacing them with electric DART services will not only add capacity, but greatly improve reliability.

KrisW1001 · 04-09-2024 11:15AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122580692#Comment_122580692

It's well known why current services have punctuality problems (line capacity, signalling, old rolling stock, mix of electric and non electric services on same tracks), and I think IÉ is actually doing well to even reach the service level or does given the historical absence of investment and the challenges of the infrastructure they have to work with. But, DART+ removes almost all of the reasons for these timing issues, so what is happening now isn't really that relevant to what could happen in the future.

I'm interested to know if anyone has an informed estimate of what the minimum train interval could be after these works.

spacetweek · 04-09-2024 10:42PM

This post is worth linking to here, it shows the new DART rolling stock with "line numbers" on the info screen on the front. It's not clear if these are mocked up or if the new DART services will actually be called that.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122577908/#Comment_122577908

p_haugh · 05-09-2024 12:31AM

I hope they don't use 'D' for dart tbh, people could easily get it confused with the Bus Connects 'D spine'.

PlatformNine · 05-09-2024 09:55AM

I don't think they are using "DX", but it's definetly possible. This was from the full size mockup last year, and I think about a year newer from the pictures linked in the comment above, which I think are all from the dart+ fleet video (funny enough the thumbnail doesn't even use DX). Either way I hope they don't go with DX naming, I feel like there just has to be a better system.

AngryLips · 05-09-2024 02:27PM

Isn't it just going to be Dart North/South/West and Southwest? Haven't they already started with this naming convention because I see it every day on the info screens in Connolly.

PlatformNine · 05-09-2024 04:19PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122585613#Comment_122585613

I hope so. The only problem I could think of with that naming is for clarification between DART North/South terminating at connolly and the current DART running between Malahide/Howth and Bray/Greystones. But I feel like that could be fixed by naming them "DART Central" or something like that. I don't think its a big problem though, I just think changing the service from a "DART North" to a "DART South" or vice versa as it passes connolly is impractical.

cgcsb · 05-09-2024 07:26PM

There might need to be route numbers because of the relative complexity of the start, end and via points compared tk the current system. For example if might not be obvious if a service from the south West or West to docklands or connolly is via drumcondra or not.

Zebra3 · 05-09-2024 07:37PM

I think it would be best to have all rail/light rail/metro routes on a similar numbering system but one that is distinctly different to the bus routes.

Encourage people to think of it all as one integrated network rather than DART or Luas while also retaining those brandings even if that sounds at odds!

p_haugh · 05-09-2024 08:21PM

IMO it should be something like:

Dart services labelled 'Rx' (Rail)
Luas services labelled 'Tx' (Tram)
Metro services labelled 'Mx' (Metro)

And each line could still get it's own unique color

(Would be great if 'D' and 'L' werent taken up by bus connects, but better not to double up and cause confusion for people)

loco_scolo · 05-09-2024 08:55PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122586753#Comment_122586753

This is a great suggestion - they definitely need to think ahead here. As the network builds out (particularly a Luas and Dart network), there has to a better way to describe routes. Red and Green simply won't do it.

For Dart, the R could also stand for Rapid, in line with the R in DART (....LOL).

CatInABox · 05-09-2024 09:56PM

I think they should just use colours, like the Luas. Red and green are already taken, so blue, yellow, etc.

Thunder87 · 06-09-2024 01:14AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122587050#Comment_122587050

Agreed, any time I'm in an unfamiliar city I usually find colour coded systems more intuitive and far easier to memorise than numbered. Won't make much difference for locals but for tourists etc the fact you can just glance at the map and instantly know which line is which and what it interchanges with simply by the colour of the lines makes a surprisingly big difference.

p_haugh · 06-09-2024 08:37AM

I agree, the various lines should definitely still be colour-coded - even if they end up going with a numbering system

PlatformNine · 06-09-2024 09:43AM

I think only colour coded names should be avoided, partially because I think the colours can be limiting as well as colour only isn't great as like someone else mentioned a good chunk of the population is colour blind. But mostly because I think it should have a seperate naming system from luas network. Still there should be some colour coding, but it should be secondary system to either a named system (like west, north, etc) or a lettered/numbered system.

though i think in a more ideal system, the trams would not have used colour coding, especially if we get anywhere close the post-2042 luas plans. If all goes well, there will eventually be more tram lines/services than there would be heavy rail lines/services, and too many services to colour code them without becoming a mess

bk · 06-09-2024 10:06AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122587914#Comment_122587914

On the colour blind thing, I'd point out that they still use the name of the colour "Red Line", "Green Line" on both the displays and on the maps. So colour blind people can still read a map.

If you don't use colours for a line on map, lets say instead you just use black for all lines, then it becomes less legible for the majority of people.

In accessibility design (my experience is software), you can still use colour, you just have to have a backup for the colour blind people. For instance, if you have two buttons in your interface, one just green, the other just red and no indications, that would fail accessibility, however if you put the text "Go" in the green button and "Stop" in the red button, then it would be fine.

Even in cities that don't have coloured lines, they will often give different lines different colour on a map. Just look at the London Underground map, every line has a different colour, even though it isn't in the name of the line. Actually now that I think of it calling the line after the colour on the map actually makes even easier to use for the majority of people.

CatInABox · 06-09-2024 10:24AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122587914#Comment_122587914

Ultimately, as bk suggests, the lines are going to be colour coded, at least on a map anyway. I don't know of any transport system around the world that doesn't do this.

Most other naming conventions will have their own problems as well. The cardinal directions one would be terrible, if I'm in Malahide, wold I be getting a dart north train south into town, or a dart south train? How do you represent that on a map? Does it swap over from dart north to dart south at Connolly?

Is the dart line out to Maynooth dart west? What about the M3 line? Dart west M3?

KrisW1001 · 06-09-2024 10:38AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122587988#Comment_122587988

For Luas, I see nothing wrong with using red and green as line colours on a map (differentiating the colours by brightness helps with colourblind accessibility). I just think it was stupid to then call those lines "Red" and "Green" as it conveys no additional useful information.

@loco_scolo "R" would be a good choice as it would allow nationwide consistency. After all, Cork will soon have its own electrified commuter railway.

The reason to do this kind of prefixing is to give users an idea of the kind of service they will be using. It's quite annoying in some (American) cities where a heavy rail, BRT and tram are all depicted equally as named lines on the journey planner maps, when in reality they offer very different levels of service

blanch152 · 06-09-2024 10:55AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122587914#Comment_122587914

If we get anywhere near the post-2042 Luas lines, there will have to be more interchangeability, like Amsterdam, which makes colour coded names impractical.

bk · 06-09-2024 11:16AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122588108#Comment_122588108

Well it does convey extra information, it makes it easy to match the name of the line to the colour on the map. No need to look up a key on the map to match the name of the line to the colour on the map, like you would on the London Underground.

Also they use the colour in the design of the stations, so it is easy to know at a glance if you are at a "Red Line" station of "Green Line" station.

This can be very help for way finding. Think if you were on O'Connell Street, you could have a sign post with two directions, a red sign post (with the text too obviously) pointing you to the Red line station and a Green sign post pointing to the Green line station.

You see that on the likes of the London Underground where they will use the colour of the line on the signs and wayfinding in the pedestrian tunnels. Connecting it directly to the name of the line makes it even easier to use.

The more I think of it the more it makes sense.

What is the alternative?

I'd assume you agree that something like the "Michael Collins Line" is stupid and completely unhelpful.

You can't really call it the Tallaght line now due to branching and different terminating stops.

I don't think calling it T1 Line, T2 Line is any more descriptive then Red Line, Green Line and it is actually worse as now you have lost the descriptive match to the colours on the map and wayfinding which is helpful.

Thunder87 · 06-09-2024 11:31AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122588225#Comment_122588225

Numbered lines are the worst of the bunch I'd say, at least with London the names are generally memorable so you still figure it out quickly.

But as an example I was in Barcelona over the summer where all their lines are L1, L5, L9 etc and even using the system daily for nearly a week I never got a grasp of what lines went where, which number matched each colour on the map, or even what line I'd just been on 5 minutes ago

scrabtom · 06-09-2024 11:45AM

If they built Luas Lucan would that be part of the Red Line or a new line all on it's own?

Is the Phoenix Park Tunnel part of the DART Eastern Line or the DART South Eastern Line?

It's going to be very difficult to distinguish which lines are which as particularly the Luas network gets more convoluted.

blanch152 · 06-09-2024 11:49AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122588359#Comment_122588359

Correct, and if they go down Thomas Street and Dame Street to Trinity College, which colour for trams turning down to Hueston and which for going on straight.

ArmaniJeanss · 06-09-2024 12:00PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122588225#Comment_122588225

I'm not quite getting your issue with line names.

Is Victoria line or Elizabeth line any different to Michael Collins line?

Are Hammersmith, Bakerloo, Piccadilly line any different to Tallaght line?

I don't think we should get hung up on the line names to be honest. The names don't have to give a 1/2 word description of the line, they just have to differentiate between the lines such that there is no potential misunderstanding. (Hell, using the police code (Alpha, Juliet, Tango) would even be acceptable).

bk · 06-09-2024 12:03PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122588359#Comment_122588359

Luas Lucan would have its own colour obviously. If you look at the London Underground map and station wayfinding, you will see two or more lines sharing tunnel sections and stations with both colours next to each other on the map and on the wayfinding.

So let’s say it was called the purple line, well if you were in the city center the sign post would have both red and purple line written on it pointing you at the shared station and the shared station would have both the red and purple colour scheme.

Obviously at the station you would have to look if the Luas coming was for Tallaght, Saggart or Lucan, but that is already the case.

It is really about making maps and wayfinding easy to use. It is about getting people to the right station and then they have to make sure to get on the right train/tram.

bk · 06-09-2024 12:11PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122588384#Comment_122588384

Red for Tallaght/Saggart bound trains versus purple let’s say for Lucan. Just because they might share a few stations in the city center doesn’t really change that. Those stations would just be branded with both red and purple.

Sure you have to check the tram destination, but you already have to do that for Tallaght/Saggart.

bk · 06-09-2024 12:21PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122588423#Comment_122588423

I mean I don't think the Victoria or Elizabeth line are good names for a line either!

Sure, people in London already know them now, so I wouldn't change them now, but I certainly wouldn't use a name like that for a new line and I think it is poor practice. It isn't something we do here in Ireland and I'd hate to see us start doing it!

And there is no such thing as the Tallaght line, there is the Red line which can either terminate at Tallaght or Saggart.

I don't think we should get hung up on the line names to be honest. The names don't have to give a 1/2 word description of the line, they just have to differentiate between the lines such that there is no potential misunderstanding. (Hell, using the police code (Alpha, Juliet, Tango) would even be acceptable).

I mean you could use any random word. But that is less useful then using a colour for that word and have it match the map, station branding and wayfinding.

blanch152 · 06-09-2024 12:28PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122588472#Comment_122588472

You could have trams from Saggart with a destination of either the Point or TCD and the same for Lucan. Other branches may become possible later on.

bk · 06-09-2024 12:51PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122588531#Comment_122588531

Sure, but that doesn't fundamentally change the lines. The stations down to TCD would be part of the new Purple line. If you want to allow complete flexibility of lines like that, then the central stations just become red/purple stations.

Just look at the London Underground map:

See how the green and yellow overlap on the map in the center, that is the Circle and District lines overlapping.

Or the yellow, brown and orange overlapping, Circle, Bakerloo and Central overlapping.

noelfirl · 06-09-2024 01:08PM

Just a side note to say that version is extremely out of date. Here's the current version of what TfL describes as the 'Tube' map.

DART+ (DART Expansion)

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