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tax Accountant cost

  • 03-09-2024 11:31am
    #1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 605 ✭✭✭


    Anyone know the average cost of a tax accountant to file a self assessment tax return?

    Its for a Joint assessed paye couple with 1 rental property? noting complicated.

    Does 500 euro seem like too much?

    Thanks



Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,115 ✭✭✭✭Seve OB


    can't really tell because what is "nothing complicated" is not always the case.

    having said that, i guess it depends on what has to be done and what is proposed.

    either way, €500 seems like a fair price.

    if it's simple, I'll do it for €499 for you 😁



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 581 ✭✭✭Infoseeker1975


    I would have the same set up at you, both PAYE with one rental property and it is not too difficult to complete - perhaps check out the following on the revenue website. Airbnb and other hosting companies will report to Revenue what income you have received, after that it is just a matter of including allowable expenses and capital allowances [e.g. a fridge bought for €800 would be €100 a year for 8 years].

    https://www.revenue.ie/en/property/rental-income/irish-rental-income/what-expenses-are-allowed.aspx



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,980 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    With just one property, and as long as the expenses aren't in some way unusual, why not do it yourself?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 605 ✭✭✭omega666


    We had a look at the form 11 but it looked daunting with all questions. Worried that we would make a mistake and

    end up with a massive tax bill!

    Maybe we will have another look, our suitation is pretty straight forward so surely cant be that difficult.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,980 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    I have filled in a few Form 11 over the years.

    Yes, they do look daunting, but are doable.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,980 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    https://www.revenue.ie/en/self-assessment-and-self-employment/guide-to-self-assessment/register-it-self-assessment.aspx

    You must register for income tax / Form 11 if:

    Who should register for Income Tax self-assessment?

    You should register for Income Tax self-assessment if:

    • you are self-employed
    • your only, or main, source of income is:
    • or
    • you have profited from share options or share incentives.

    You must register for self-assessment if:

    • your taxable non-PAYE income exceeds €5,000
    • or
    • your gross non-PAYE income exceeds €30,000.

    If the net rental profits (not the gross rent) are below 5,000, and the gross rent is below 30k, it looks to me that you can use the easier Form 12.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,684 ✭✭✭Lenar3556


    It’s fine, but you will probably find someone to do it for half that if you phone around.
    If you have all your expenses and income together, it’s unlikely to be any more than an hours work.

    Most of the Form 11 will be left blank, as it’s not relevant.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Don't go cheap on a tax return. A portion of the cost is a tax deductible expense, so it won't actually cost you the €500. Using a professional will ensure it is completed correctly while saving you time and hassle.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 605 ✭✭✭omega666


    Thanks All, We sat down and filled out the form 11 online ourselves and paid the tax which took us about an hour and that was going slow to make sure we didn't make any mistakes. It was pretty straight forward as our tax suitation isnt complicated.

    Its hard to believe an accountant was looking for 500 euro to do it



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,797 ✭✭✭SureYWouldntYa


    It took you an hour to fill out the form, how long did it take you to check whether all of your expenses are tax deductible? Are you sure that xyz is repair or is it capital? Are you sure you claimed all eligible reliefs - medical expenses, rent tax credit, mortgage interest relief, etc. etc.

    Same as people saying €80 for 15 minutes with a doctor isn't a fair price, you're not paying for that rather you are paying for the countless hours of experience before that too



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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    It's hard to believe a professional who studied at university for several years, sat professional exams, keeps up to date with CPD, runs a business with overheads, would charge a fee for their knowledge, time, effort.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,684 ✭✭✭Lenar3556


    I don’t think the OP has any issue with them charging a fee, it’s the level of the fee that has surprised them.

    Accountants aren’t subject to any statutory regulation in Ireland. Some will have invested heavily in their career (as you have set out above) and others may have no formal training whatsoever- although may still be entirely competent to run their business.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    That fee is middle of the road. I've seen people charged €1,000 for a simple form11. I see some places offering it for €199.

    I've also seen plenty of people make an absolute balls of the form11 and overpay their taxes, thinking this is easy I'll save myself a few quid.

    OP might confirm what they think would be an appropriate fee in this instance?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 323 ✭✭Avatar in the Post




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,684 ✭✭✭Lenar3556


    There is huge variation in the amount of work required to prepare an income tax return depending on the circumstances. In many cases €1000 wouldn’t cover the half of it.

    But this was a PAYE worker who simply needed to declare some rental income on a single property. Unless there was some unusual factors I think €200 would be a reasonable fee.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    €162 plus VAT for €200😂

    Hardly worth the hassle for an accountant.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,684 ✭✭✭Lenar3556


    It all adds up! You could do 8-10 of those a day, and it’s recurring business.
    Next year, it will take half the time, because you will already have ROS access for them and you won’t need much client engagement.

    You would be surprised the more valuable business that can come from having these small clients. It is how country accountancy practices have been run for decades.

    Charge over the odds and the client balks, as has happened here. You have lost that client and potential referrals.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 323 ✭✭Avatar in the Post


    small firms are finding it very hard to get staff of all grades. Many established accountants turning away clients that they can’t service, some are making excuses to not retain some clients on a charge/time cost basis. You might get newly set up accountants or more likely a bookkeeper to do it for a couple of hundred euro.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,684 ✭✭✭Lenar3556


    I think you are under rating it. I know many well established accountancy firms who routinely take on this kind of business.

    If you were to do 8 of those returns a day, and dedicate just two days a week to this derisory business that is still €115k+ p.a. with very little outlay. If we pushed it to €250 per Form11 we would have revenues of closer to €150k ex VAT. for 2 days a week over 45 weeks in the year.

    I actually think it’s quite good business. You would need to develop systems for gathering the information from clients efficiently, and ideally you might hope to take on a junior staff member to manage the day to day aspects. But even if you were to do the lot yourself, I think it would be reasonably lucrative and stable business, with opportunity to fill the other three days with what ever you want.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,222 ✭✭✭hold my beer


    The other 3 days would be filled with answering small queries from your 100s of Income Tax clients.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,797 ✭✭✭SureYWouldntYa


    What if next year doesn't take half the time but takes double on account of various queries that arises

    Client then baulks when their fee has doubled, you have to go explaining why it's double but they thought their annual fee was x costing you more time (and time is money) in getting this higher fee

    With the time onboarding , AML, billing etc. takes along with the real tax work in a proper practice the fees can't feasibly be €200 even for the most basic cases

    At €200 you won't be putting in the time to give proper advice as well (e.g. is their employment pensionable, could make an AVC against this income to offset the tax liability on the rental income) so it would be a bottom of the barrel service level and firms might not want to be giving these basement level services, they're available online from the likes of tax assist and irish tax rebates



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 323 ✭✭Avatar in the Post


    The well established practices you are talking about must be finding staff other firms are having difficulty finding… maybe in the country where options for staff are more scarce, but not in cities or towns surrounding cities.

    It would be decent work for a bookkeeper.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 323 ✭✭Avatar in the Post


    Also, the feedback from agencies is that talent is very scarce. I think established practices will continue more and more to be selective.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Do it right the first time.

    You'll probably be able to do it yourself in future years when you see how it's done anyway.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 323 ✭✭Avatar in the Post


    Here’s the other thing. At €200, the first year is a loss leader. A senior staff member is going to have to meet with the client to discuss their situation. The OP may sound simple, but questions still need to be asked by a professional, such as the type of expenses, what’s allowable, set up depreciation calculations, then there’s tax advice, then passing to a junior, supervising the junior… and the next year the client buggers off and does it themselves 😅



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,678 ✭✭✭✭Jim_Hodge


    Just do it yourself online. The form can look daunting but you'll probably not need to fill in anything on most of it. Paying someone €500 to do a routine tax return, designed to be done by your average Joe Soap online, is madness. I'm an ole guy and no accountant or bookkeeper and even I can do it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,423 ✭✭✭Buddy Bubs


    I used to do the likes of this as a nixer for extended family and friends but it became an almighty pain in the hole I gave it up, just claimed since I'm no longer working as an accountant I haven't kept up to date with the rules and regulations.

    Getting information from people was a nightmare. Then you get the questions about every scheme they've heard of and every article they read, which of course they don't want to pay for. People hate the idea of paying for professional advice which is a big part of accountancy.

    If I was doing this for a living id be looking for at least 500 euro per return



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,966 ✭✭✭beachhead




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 323 ✭✭Avatar in the Post


    A form 11 really isn’t set up to be completed by Joe Soap. How did you get on completing the Balance Sheet section?

    It can be done, as in getting to the end and creating A tax liability/rebate…but as correctly designed… not so easy by Joe Soap.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,678 ✭✭✭✭Jim_Hodge


    I beg to differ but we're all entitled to our opinions. One man's easy can be another man's trial.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 323 ✭✭Avatar in the Post


    I used to do it as a nixer back in the day (pre qualified) post working in practice. Young family, extra money seemed like a good thing. I stopped doing it because in quick succession two “clients’ who were both worried how much they’d have to pay got back significant rebates, stiffed me. 😭

    A few years later one of them came back looking for help and I took the greatest pleasure telling him to FO. By then was doing well in industry. Ahhh memories 😅

    Edit… meant as a response to Buddy.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 323 ✭✭Avatar in the Post


    As the saying goes, everyone is entitled to their opinion, not their own facts.😉



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,966 ✭✭✭beachhead


    Yes,easy if you take your time.Lay out a "dummy"return before committing it to paper or online



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,797 ✭✭✭SureYWouldntYa


    Someone filling out the form could easily make countless mistakes no matter how much time they take, depending on their tax knowledge

    For context im an accountant. Have had clients come to us making the following mistakes as examples when they did the returns themselves
    - claimed the full cost of their new car as a 'motor expense', along with claiming the depreciation for the year on it as an additional expense (no addback of depreciation, capital allowances not operated)
    - failed to claim the 'earned income credit' as a proprietary director and ended up paying €1,650 since the credit was missing from their salary when applied at source
    - deducted the full mortgage payments from their rental income (even when provided with the legislation, Revenue briefs etc. the client thought we were wrong)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 949 ✭✭✭Stationmaster


    I'm self employed doing book-keeping and tax returns and I wouldn't charge anything less than €450 unless I was 95% sure there was very little in it and there would be no more to be done during the year. What I find in most cases with the simple Form 11 is that there will still be several queries, phone calls, emails etc throughout the year which doesn't be long adding up timewise. I would also have no issue showing someone how to do it themselves if they wished if it was a very simple return.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,966 ✭✭✭beachhead


    The situations you outline do occur.Depends on clients thought processes or non interest in researching.The follow up phone calls are a nuisance.e450 settling down as average charge for a 2simple" return.



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