Transgender man wins women's 100 yd and 400 yd freestyle races.

That’s not a condition plodder, that’s entirely normal 😁

It’s not directed towards you at all but there’s a whole bunch of issues with the whole idea of terms like “male puberty” or “female puberty” when speaking in the context of biology. There’s just no such concept as either male or female puberty. Puberty is simply a biological process of sexual maturation.

It’s why the sports organisations which have implemented the rules the way they have in relation to people who are transgender - because they are fully aware at the same time that in Western medicine it would be considered unethical to treat gender dysphoria with cross-sex hormones before puberty. It would also be unethical to perform surgeries such as orchiectomy before puberty, which is the only means by which people with XY chromosomes would be eligible to participate in competitions where competitors are required to be of the female sex.

It’s also a neat way of avoiding accusations that they are attempting to define womanhood when they can legitimately exclude women with high testosterone levels from competition on the basis that their testosterone levels don’t fall within the normal range for women, a range based on an measurement approximated be an average among women, with no regard for the fact that testosterone levels among female athletes have been found to be significantly higher than women in the general population. The reason for this discrepancy is simply selection bias - as organisations change the rules to attempt to exclude one set of competitors in order to claim they wish to maintain fair competition, coaches, trainers, etc will find athletes who they imagine have an advantage which gives them the potential to excel in any given sport.

In short - for anyone aiming to exclude men from competing in sports with women, science isn’t going to help, it’s going to be more of a hindrance, and as medicine develops, they’re going to have to revisit the rules again and again to keep up with developments in science, medicine and law.

I pointed out those conditions to you days ago, they prevent. You refused to accept that could be verified. My contention was that doctors could confirm they do. Seems you now accept you were wrong.

Them being separate does make a difference to the point you were making. You said a person with CAIS AND gonadectomy would be confirm. I was explaining that the gonadectomy is irrelevant in the case of CAIS. They wouldn't go through puberty in either case. Therefore the gonadectomy is not required for confirmation. I've no idea why that is hard to understand.

Somebody who is XY NOT going through male puberty is not normal.

It is absolutely normal for someone who is XY, not to go through male puberty! 😂 This is the point I was making, where plodder refers to it as a condition -

there are some conditions where it's clear that an XY woman couldn't have gone through male puberty.

And male puberty and female puberty definitely exist. Male puberty is simply the biological process that the male sex typically goes through. Bizarre to suggest that a tangible change in hormones doesn't exist.

They don’t exist. Puberty is the term given to the biological process of sexual maturation, doesn’t matter whether it refers to individuals of either sex. It’s not a process that humans typically go through either, it’s an absolute certainty that without medical intervention, humans go through the process of puberty. I don’t suggest that a tangible change in hormones or hormone levels doesn’t exist, I’m making the point that associating puberty with either sex, whether it be male or female, does not exist in biology. The point couldn’t be made clearer by your attempt to suggest that someone who is XY not going through male puberty is not normal.

Humans are not born into a body of one sex or the other either - they’re just born, and their sex is observed at birth, and in most instances this casual observation isn’t an issue, but if the casual observations of the observer at birth are incorrect, it can mean that the individual might only find out that they have these conditions when they are undergoing sex testing for the purposes of competing in events where they assume they meet the eligibility criteria, only to find out from the results of the tests that they don’t.

That’s why early crude attempts to prohibit cheating in women’s sports by men entering the competition, by having women parade naked to be casually observed, were deemed to be unethical and inappropriate. Which is why the more sophisticated Barr body test was introduced, turned out to cause more problems than the one problem it was argued to be addressing, and that’s how we’re at where we are today, which will at some point be discarded again in favour of new technologies and means by which the criteria for eligibility can be determined. Currently methods don’t seek to determine sex, they seek to determine eligibility based upon testosterone levels, regardless of whether or not an individual is of the male or female sex.

The reason doping is banned for both men and women isn’t just because an athlete seeks to gain a competitive advantage in competition, it’s because of the health risks associated with doping itself. It’s why there were objections raised by athletes when it was suggested to them that in order to compete, they would have to lower their testosterone levels by artificial means - the justification for it isn’t supported by medical or scientific evidence, nor have the long-term effects of such treatments been measured, quantified and documented in any scientific or medical journals. This is the basis on which Caster Semenya is making her case - that people in her position shouldn’t be made to alter their physiology in order to conform to the standards assumed by sports governing bodies, on the grounds that such measures are unfair to people in her position and in positions similar to the position in which she has been placed through no fault of her own, but rather because the WA changed the existing rules under which she was previously eligible to compete in the events she competed in, without restrictions, and certainly without being forced into a position where she would have to choose between continuing to compete in the events she competes in, or undergoing unnecessary treatments with side-effects which impede her performance massively, and where the long-term effects are unknown.

So we can have lines and lines of attempts to explain that Caster Semenya is somehow a very unusual type of female, despite the CAS findings, or we can apply Occam’s razor and say - as CAS did - that anyone with XY chromosomes and functioning testes is effectively male and therefore should not be competing against females.

Now I don’t mind if you want to call Semenya or anyone with the same DSD a woman. I’m fine with that. I care only that they are not allowed to compete against women. And particularly not to fight women. Anyone who condones that is condoning MVAW&G.

It’s shocking - yet not entirely surprising - just how many men are indeed quite prepared to do that. I used to think Germaine Greer was exaggerating about men hating women. Now I see how insightful she was.

So we can have lines and lines of attempts to explain that Caster Semenya is somehow a very unusual type of female, despite the CAS findings, or we can apply Occam’s razor and say - as CAS did - that anyone with XY chromosomes and functioning testes is effectively male and therefore should not be competing against females.

You can if you like, or you could have a simple sentence that says CAS are an administrative body for resolving legal disputes, not scientific disputes. It’s why their application of Occam’s razor didn’t amount to shìt in terms of it’s application in law -

https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/07/18/caster-semenya-won-her-case-not-right-compete

Now I don’t care if you want to call Semenya or anyone with the same DSD a woman. I’m fine with that. I care only that they are not allowed to compete against women.

Cool 👌

EDIT: I hadn’t seen the additional comment about Germaine Greer’s insight. Germaine Greer was exaggerating about men hating women, but it’s because she was observing society through a Feminist lens that she was doing so. I liked her forthright attitude, but her ideas were… fanciful, which is why they remain largely obscure even though her book was a bestseller. Caster Semenya is the embodiment of Greer’s philosophy, not a contradiction to it:

The freedom I pleaded for twenty years ago was freedom to be a person, with dignity, integrity, nobility, passion, pride that constitute personhood. Freedom to run, shout, talk loudly and sit with your knees apart. Freedom to know and love the earth and all that swims, lies, and crawls upon it ... most of the women in the world are still afraid, still hungry, still mute and loaded by religion with all kinds of fetters, masked, muzzled, mutilated and beaten.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Female_Eunuch

There’s no irony there? He was referring to the culture war as being politically motivated, and said the IOC wasn’t going to be involved. In other words - try as they might to stoke the flames of a culture war, the IOC isn’t interested. But that was always the case long before culture warriors set their sights on sports and the IOC in particular. The only time in recent memory I can recall a more egregious example of giving culture warriors what they wanted was the Medical Director of the IOC and the statement he made around the time the IOC issued their guidelines to the International Sports Federations in 2021:

When asked about the potential threat to women’s sport, Budgett said: “We have spent 100 years promoting women’s sport. I think it is up to the whole international sports movement and particularly the international federations to make sure they do protect women’s sport.”

But he added: “The other important thing to remember is that trans women are women. You have got to include all women if you possibly can.”

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2021/jul/30/ioc-admits-guidelines-for-transgender-athletes-are-not-fit-for-purpose

Did you choose your own parents too?