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Western Rail Corridor / Rail Trail Discussion

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,001 ✭✭✭Westernview




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,531 ✭✭✭mayo.mick


    Confirmed by Minister Ryan yet again today, CLEARLY, that the line north of Claremorris should be used as a Mayo/Sligo Greenway

    eamon ryan-marian harkin 16-05-24.jpg


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9 Chx12


    Hi

    What level of compensation do CIE pay if you agree to close a level crossing on farm land?

    Thanks



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,001 ✭✭✭Westernview


    Delighted to see that Claremorris to Athenry is to be electrified. Looking forward to seeing more detail on that.

    "A new review of rail services on both sides of the Border sets out a vision of greater frequency and higher speeds.

    There will be a new electrified railway in the west between Athenry and Claremorris, taking in Tuam along the way.

    And there will be a new electric rail from Limerick city to Shannon ­Airport, as well as out to the Port of Foynes.

    Another major innovation will be an electrified railway between Waterford and Wexford for the first time.

    Commuters from one city to ­another are being promised that their journey times will be significantly reduced through higher speeds.

    Expansion of rail coverage – including the much-promised western rail corridor – will mean greater reach. Ireland’s rail network would increase from 2,300km in length to almost 3,000km under the recommendations."



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,463 ✭✭✭Economics101


    Completely mad stuff. Typical Indo sensationalism. There mey be an electrified line from Claremorris to Athenry, but not before 2100, or maybe even later, Dream on.

    There are real and urgent infrastructure rail needs, and this is just a stupid distraction



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,001 ✭✭✭Westernview


    We've a different definition of the word sensationalism. The line would already be open were it not for the last recession so nothing radical about it. Looking forward to seeing our regional western towns linked up finally once more.



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 23,724 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    To be clear, this is just a report and NOT official policy. The published report specifically states:

    These recommendations do not represent official policy for either jurisdiction, but aim to provide a constructive,
    evidence-based approach for delivering the Goals and Objectives of this Review

    So zero guarantees that anything in the report will actually be delivered.

    Also to be clear, the report DOES NOT say that Athenry to Claremorris is to be electrified!

    The report only says that core intercity routes will be electrified, Cork to Belfast, Limerick to Limerick Junction, Galway to Dublin and Waterford to Dublin.

    For the rest of the network, including the WRC, they talk about Decarbonisation, which is different. They plan on their use battery trains or hydrogen trains for the non core lines, not electrified!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,531 ✭✭✭mayo.mick


    Maybe have yet another report. 1st report was done in 2004 or there abouts? 20yrs ago.

    map.jpg


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,001 ✭✭✭Westernview


    The report details the strategic priorities of the government which is the responsible way to spend tax payers money. Why would it say anything is guaranteed at this stage? That's not the language governments use. No rail, road, hospital, school or hospital is ever guaranteed until it's actually under construction and ultimately completed. The report however gives us a very good indication of what will be built and prioritised. There's no point getting worked up looking for guarantees at this stage.

    If the mention of electrification of the line was an error it is the Independent's error not mine as I just posted the article.

    Report are often done at various time periods nothing wrong with that. Some rail lines have opened since that 2004 report and others were shelved that would likely have opened were it not for the recession. Reports from 20 years ago require updating or replacing, especially as government priorities have clearly shifted in relation to matters of climate change. The 10 year review proposed in the report released today seems sensible to allow for unforeseen events such as the changes to fortunes of the economies of the north and the republic and in response to how the rail line are performing over time.



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 23,724 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Why spread bad journalism without first checking the source document!



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  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 23,724 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Just for context for others looking at the above picture. The legend shows the lines to be electrified in red, light red for lines to be just electrified, dark red for lines to be both electrified and upgraded to dual/quad track.

    The other lines are "other decarbonised", the image is from page 48 of the Final report.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,001 ✭✭✭Westernview


    The Irish Independent is a national paper so I had no reason to not believe it. It's not like I quoted some random social media post. So I wasn't 'spreading bad journalism' as you are trying to suggest. I hadn't seen the source document but I shouldn't need to in order to share a posted article.



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 23,724 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Well lesson learned for you, the national papers are terrible when it comes to public transport. Actually some of the smaller independents like Irish Cycle, etc. tend to do better. The national papers tend to be full of anti rail and anti public transport commentators and often get things very badly wrong!

    Though if you had read the draft report, you should have known that electrification wasn't on for these lines and you should have been suspicious of such a major change from the draft.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,001 ✭✭✭Westernview


    As a keen cyclist I follow Irish Cycle online and it's a fine resource but even Cian has had to issue corrections to his articles in the past. I've already accepted the Independent article seemed to have a mistake but I'm not sure what more you want me to say on that. I'm certainly not interested in any condescending 'lesson learned' lectures from you on it any further.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,860 ✭✭✭intellectual dosser


    Hopefully now both governments have the courage to implement these recommendations.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 2,175 ✭✭✭Hibernicis


    Hopefully both governments will do nothing of the sort without first running each project element listed in the AISRR through proper governance and in particular a rigorous economic and social cost benefit analysis to root out the pie in the sky basket cases and bin them.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,001 ✭✭✭Westernview


    Eamon Ryan on Newstalk this morning was pressed on the challenge of implementing such an ambitous programme. He replied that some projects would take time but that others could be done much quicker. He mentioned that Ireland is in discussions with the European investment bank on funding and that when asked for priorities by the bank he has listed the WRC as one of the initial projects. He has been consistent throughout on this so it's likely that this work will be carried out before the end of the decade.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,860 ✭✭✭intellectual dosser


    You’re suggesting more reports?


    I'm all for checks and balances but we don’t need more reports to tell us we should connect our primary airports to the rail network, or to double track more mainlines. Every time a project is held for more reports the cost goes up 10%+ by the time that report is published. As I said, time for courage.



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 23,724 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Just to be clear the AIRR is just a high level strategy document, but is in no way official government policy or even a real project.

    If the government does decide to progress parts of it, each of those parts will need to become an individual project, with a project team, full proper planning, many detailed engineer reports and a Cost Benefit Analysis and pass multiple business decision gates.

    That is just normal project planning.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,860 ✭✭✭intellectual dosser


    When I said ‘courage to implement’ I do mean proceeding with the next steps towards making them happen - so I don’t think we’re in total disagreement.


    However, when you say it’s not government policy, how does that differ from the Minister For Transport presenting the AIRR as a plan towards 2050?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 2,175 ✭✭✭Hibernicis


    No I'm not suggesting or calling for more reports. Just proper governance. Totally different thing.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,535 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    There is an official national infrastructure plan to 2040 - the NDP. The AISRR seems to be the minister's pet project, I wouldn't expect to hear much about it after he has left the position (which will be within the next 10 months).



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 831 ✭✭✭loco_scolo


    I wonder how will they address the CBA piece on individual projects. The AIRR as a whole is shown to have a positive CBA but this doesn't (and shouldn't) apply to individual projects.

    I really hope they issue an actual policy doc outlining the sequencing of projects. For example, a distinct phase of double tracking, electrifying specific lines, Navan line, WRC etc. Have a mix of projects constantly in planning and construction with varying degrees of CBA and capital outlay.



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 23,724 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    From the introduction of the Final Report, page 11:

    The Review has developed recommendations for policymakers that, together, provide a route to achieving the
    Review’s Goals and Objectives. These recommendations do not represent official policy for either jurisdiction, but aim to provide a constructive, evidence-based approach for delivering the Goals and Objectives of this Review.

    Note the bold text is from the report itself!

    Basically this report is relatively meaningless, the government has not said they will implement any of it.

    I do think the report is useful as for the first time it gives a high level overview of how the rail network might develop and which projects might be considered.

    However I think it is important to understand that there are zero guarantees here.

    As Pete points out the NDP lays out official projects, though even then, they still have to pass CBA, project development, etc. I'd say this document will inform future NDP's.

    I do think some projects from it will get the go ahead, but I'd be pleasantly surprised if say half of this is completed by 2050.



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 23,724 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Yes, the CBA part is interesting. The report overall comes out with a CBA of 1:1, but it seems many of projects individually of a CBA much less then 1, but then some other projects have a CBA stronger then 1, so they pull up the average.

    I'm not sure how that would then work out when it comes to reviewing the CBA of those individual projects.

    Given the AIRR isn't an official policy, then it probably means the CBA of the AIRR wouldn't have bearing on individual projects.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,782 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    Are CBAs for individual projects published?

    Are CBAs done for road projects?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 2,175 ✭✭✭Hibernicis


    Any project that falls within the scope of DEPR’s PSC guidelines will have both a preliminary and a final business case prepared. This applies equally to Road and Rail projects.

    https://www.gov.ie/en/collection/e8040-infrastructure-guidelines/

    The Foynes line was out of scope because it’s essentially a refresh of an existing line, i.e. engineering works rather than a new line. This is a glaring shortcoming in the PSC and is extremly unsatisfactory from a taxpayer’s perspective



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 455 ✭✭Ireland trains


    https://www.clarecoco.ie/your-council/%5Bnews%5D/community-hears-of-strong-demand-and-economic-benefit-to-reopen-crusheen-railway-station.html

    As has been mentioned in another forum, it looks like Crusheen station has moved one step closer to becoming a reality. Cost claimed at €4.5m, although the platform will probably need to be longer than the 4 carriage 2600 in the artist’s impression.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 1,505 ✭✭✭Consonata


    I think it's because the CBAs of the projects which have higher CBAs (approaching 2) have dependencies in the sub-1 CBAs which make the others viable. Presumably that's how it averages out.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,463 ✭✭✭Economics101


    So the local community says there is strong demand for a station at Crusheen. I hope it a bit stronger than at Ardrahan and Craughwell.



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