World Professional Association for Transgender Health (WPATH) Files

Exactly, there is a clear correlation between mental illness and identifying as trans and the mental illness often precedes the trans claim, not the other way around.

So if 40% of people are now attempting suicide, despite there being medical and surgical treatments available to enable people to transition, where are all the trans people commiting suicide throughout history. Because presumably suicide rates must have been much higher when effective transition was almost impossible?

Or could it be that transition doesn't actually improve their mental health or even harms it?

Second. You still haven't explained what you mean by "showing kindness".

If you mean not making nasty comments to people, then I don't think anyone on here disagrees.

If you mean violence towards trans people, again, utterly unacceptable - but TBF that is a problem of male violence, and it's striking that the violence towards women comes, as always, from the male side, in this case from male transitioners, claiming to be female, but presenting the usual male violence towards women. Or from their male allies.

Because what I mean by "in the trenches" is the appalling treatment of (mainly) women, though some men too, just for expressing scepticism about certain demands for supposed trans rights such as defining as "conversion therapy" any form of watchful waiting instead of immediate affirmation and social transitioning of young people with gender dysphoria.

Lumping suicidal people in with rapists/murderers is exactly what trans rights activists do when they talk about the "trans umbrella". What I want to do is separate those out, not lump them in together.

Those reports do not claim there is not a hugh rate of suicidality. They question whether interventions have any effect on it, as I mentioned in my previous post.

The 41% statistic refers to the number who attempted suicide. I've seen figures more than double that for ideation.

I have repeatedly said I do not know what approach is best for trans people. It is not related to my point, which is that discourse on this should be less combative regardless of stance. I feel like I'm being demanded to take a side, when my basic point is that the debate should not be approached in such 'us vs them' terms.

It's a reasonable question when asked once. It is not a reasonable question when continuously repeated because you cannot accept an answer of "I don't know".

But you don't seem to know much, just trotting out the very much dismissed suicidal rate numbers.

I await your 'but but compassion ' response.

We got here through extreme be-kindness

This is getting ridiculous tbh. I made very one very simple point. Then I responded to several posts arguing about things I had not said or repeating questions I answered. I'm not a medical professional. Saying I don't know what the right way of treating a suicide risk with a condition I have no understanding of is the most sane and reasonable position to take. For some reason that is snowballing into crazy bullshit arguments when my basic point is approach things in a less combative manner. Done with this silly conversation.

My point may have been unclear. What I'm saying is that just as men do not usually pose a threat to women, and yet we still have female-only spaces because it's impossible for women to tell in advance which men are a threat, similarly most trans women don't pose a threat to women either.

IOW I don't need to think that all trans women are a threat to women to want to keep them out of female spaces, just that they pose the same level of threat as any man. Being a trans woman is not a special category of males that are safe for women.

Yes, that’s true of course but women are regularly told that their comfort is unimportant compared to trans rights: the female swimmers who complained about Lia Thomas parading around the changing room with his penis out were advised to have counselling to help them deal with what was considered to be their problem. That’s why the argument tends to go straight to the risk of harm, as that should be harder to dismiss.

But of course you are correct: women simply wanting to change without men around should be a sufficient reason in itself. In practice, sadly, it’s not.

And something else that it took me a while to get clear in my own mind (so socialised are we to prioritise male wishes over female needs) is that one can only consent to for oneself, not for other women.

So even if many women really do have no problem with sharing female-only spaces and sports with a special category of males, that doesn’t mean that ALL women have consented.

The reality is that most haven’t been asked anyway. It’s a just been assumed that their opinion doesn’t really matter.