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Why are the government intent on forcing through the EU Migration Pact?

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,725 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    He can put his own country first or he can do the same as Sunak did, but I don't see how he can possibly do both.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,725 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    Immigration is higher in Spain (18% of the population foreign-born) than in Germany (17.3% of the population foreign-born).



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,282 ✭✭✭sock.rocker*


    Not really about percentage, but the make up of the immigrant population.

    Germany:

    image.png

    Spain:

    image.png


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,725 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    Mmm. And is there any evidence that, when we control for other socioeconomic factors that influence crime rates, the differently-constituted Spanish migrant population has a lower crime rate than the German migrant population. Or are we just projecting this on the back of racist assumptions?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,282 ✭✭✭sock.rocker*


    I thought it was pretty obvious from the tables that Germany has a higher percentage of recent mass immigration from war zones etc. Also, a high percentage of immigrants to Spain come from Catholic Spanish-speaking countries, which obviously allows fast integration and less ghettoisation.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,725 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    But you're still just projecting different crime rates based on generalised assumptions you are making about these groups. Where's the actual data on this?

    Going back to Kroos's original point — are you safer in Germany or Spain? The answer is, unambiguously, Spain — Spanish crime rates are lower overall (though no doubt if you search you can find particular crimes where German rates are lower). But there is no basis for attributing this to immigration in general, since Spain actually has (relatively speaking) a higher immigrant population than Germany. Is it, then, because immigrants to Germany are more prone to criminal behaviour than immigrants to Spain, because of the particular societies from which they come or the particular circumstances they have left? So far, we're offered precisely zero evidence that this is the case; the idea seems to emerge from the notion that the higher crime rates in Germany simply must be a product of immigration, and this is just a rationalisation to try to support that.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,948 ✭✭✭eightieschewbaccy


    Is it though? If this was a footballer saying that they don't have an issue with immigration or that was supportive of refugees, you'd be demanding they get back in their lane and stick to soccer. He's expressed an opinion but it's hardly an indictment on society...

    Post edited by eightieschewbaccy on


  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 10,935 Mod ✭✭✭✭Jim2007


    Well you can think whatever you like, but I expect the government are better informed and understand very well that it does not work like that! There is no obligation on any country including the UK to accept any kind of migrants unless the returning government can show that they are citizens of the target country. So they will be processed and returned to their country of origin if possible, otherwise we are stuck with them, just like every other country. No surprises, shocks or anything else because the Irish diplomatic corp and by the extension the government are well informed and just like Starmer they will be looking out for the Irish interests.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,725 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    (You're forgetting the arrangements for the Common Travel Area, under which someone who enters the UK and then travels from the UK to Ireland but isn't entitled to be in Ireland can be returned to the UK, and vice versa. Sunak made some off-the-cuff comment about not doing that, probably in ignorance of the fact that the arrangement has long been in place and has operated both ways for many years. The Irish government will be hoping that Starmer is both better informed and less desperate to play for domestic hard right support, and won't repeat the gaffe.)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,805 ✭✭✭✭Marcusm


    To throw another bit in the pot, there is also the question of whether reported crime figures are based in reality in either jurisdiction. I suspect since arriving in Spain that Toni Kroos has only experienced what plutocratic footballers experience, ie an insulated life. He grew up in various port cities in Far Eastern Germany, close to the Polish border. His early years would have been the upheaval of reunification, changing circumstances for Osties before he lived to Bayern Munich in his late teens.

    His views as regards comparators are formed by very different class-based experiences, growing up in a poor area the being wealthy in world class cities.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,805 ✭✭✭✭Marcusm


    I’d agree with much of this but would also note that the push factor of Rwanda has gone and many of those who scraped over the borders in the past 6 months to flee the deportation will not be followed by as many in the future - if the threat of deportation is effectively gone, will Ireland seem that attractive?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,355 ✭✭✭✭Galwayguy35


    Yeah they are really looking out for our interests all right letting in just about anyone that shows up whether they have a passport or not.

    And they know once they get a foot in the door there is zero chance of getting deported.

    We a a soft mark country.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,117 ✭✭✭TokTik


    Yeah, he definetly won’t have any friends, family or colleagues that still live in Germany informing him. Probably doesn’t watch German news either.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,805 ✭✭✭✭Marcusm




  • Posts: 2,814 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Sorry, how would you know what I’d be ‘demanding’. I don’t believe we’re acquainted so I’ll ask you to refrain from ascribing behaviours to me.

    Kroos has stated openly that he wouldn’t feel comfortable seeing his daughter out late in the evening in his home country. That’s hardly a ringing endorsement of the large scale demographic change Germany has undergone. As somebody who lived there for many years, Kroos is simply articulating what a significant % of his fellow citizens also believe.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,862 ✭✭✭Real Donald Trump


    For the people criticizing Kroos remarks, would you care to comment on this please



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 91,706 ✭✭✭✭JP Liz V1


    No matter what people tell you, words and ideas can change this World



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,725 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    The article you link discusses that very question. The pact includes measures to streamline and expedite the intra-EU returns process, and this is one of its key attractions, so far as the Irish government is concerned.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,117 ✭✭✭TokTik


    Because the EU told them to is the correct answer.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,071 ✭✭✭conorhal


    Is this not more or less the same arrangement that already exists under the Dublin Agreement? Which as a poster pointed out above: 2,758 requests were made by Ireland to other EU countries to take responsibility for an asylum claim over the last 4yrs but returned only 31.
    I see no reason that the new arrangement won't work the same as the old one. If you think otherwise, your just a Pollyanna.
    The reality is that signing this deal was a stupid idea. It exists only to allow France and Germany to offload the product of their poor decisions, every 'tough measure' to limit arrivals or expedite the removal of failed asylum seekers will continue to fail by design and be hobbled by bodies like the ECHR. The chancers will still chance their arm, there will be no reduction of illegal entrants, we'll just be agreeing to take on average another 30,000 migrants on top of that and sure if we get another war in the Middle East (unlikely I know!) and another couple of million migrants rock up on the boarders of the EU, we'll be obliged to take a hell of a lot more than that annually.


    So long Ireland, it was nice knowing you!



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 105 ✭✭jhansynk10


    The pact was adopted and passed through the Dail with f all scrutiny and using the whip system. They did this because they know that the public is opposed to it at it's heart. All our politicians are interested in is looking good in the eyes of the EU and getting promoted professionally.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,443 ✭✭✭brickster69


    Considering the only benefit was a bit of funding why not use the opt out like Denmark did ? Now it is binding the opt out has gone.

    "if you get on the wrong train, get off at the nearest station, the longer it takes you to get off, the more expensive the return trip will be."



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 105 ✭✭jhansynk10


    Because they'd rather a pat on the head from Europe and the UN and some cushy job when they inevitably get kicked out of office.



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