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Enoch Burke turns up to school again despite sacking - read OP before posting

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 42,568 ✭✭✭✭Boggles


    Claims to own the green area.

    Council designated it public in 2021. Do you think they did for the craic?



  • Posts: 14,769 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Google is your friend.

    You went to the trouble of linking the legislation, you have explained how the DPP errored in their interpretation, and their opinion that the ingredients for a prosecution don’t exist.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 42,568 ✭✭✭✭Boggles


    No it isn't. Google is a search engine.

    The DPP never explained their decision publicly.

    IMO they declined to prosecute largely out of cowardice.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 42,568 ✭✭✭✭Boggles


    Trespassing laws, how they are implemented and interrupted is certainly relevant considering Burke was literally arrested for it.



  • Site Banned Posts: 12,922 ✭✭✭✭suvigirl


    What would possibly be the point of prosecuting something in the district court that, A. Doesn't have the ingredients to secure a conviction, and B, even if it did, would result in the probation act/donation to the court poor box?

    Seems you want to let him off lightly. As it stands, he goes to prison for contempt and also has a hefty fine, getting larger all the time. Seems to be a much better punishment.



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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Burke was arrested but the DPP decided not to prosecute and despite what you or I think about their decision, they are invested with the authority to make those calls. That's their job.

    At the time of his arrest, Burke hadn't yet been sacked and the injunction against him wasn't a permanent one, which may also have been a factor in the DPP's decision.

    Once the dismissal process is complete, the game changes, and (as I understand it) he could then be charged with an offence of trespass if he breaks the permanent injunction again.

    Moving on.



  • Posts: 14,769 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    I would suspect he would be overjoyed by an acquittal on a criminal trespass prosecution, he would see it as vindication, and validation.

    You want the DPP to be brave, and hand him that on a plate?



  • Site Banned Posts: 1,745 ✭✭✭Raichų


    oh god yeah the DPP is I’m sure terrified of Burke.

    I mean they’ve directed charges at criminal gangs and their leaders but Burke family? Too scary.

    Is it likely perhaps that they just didn’t find there was enough evidence to pursue charges?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 42,568 ✭✭✭✭Boggles


    What evidence is required?

    It's not complicated.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 42,568 ✭✭✭✭Boggles


    What makes you think he would be acquitted?

    By the time it got to trial it would be multiple arrests for trespass plus a revoking of bail.

    On what grounds would a judge not find him guilty?

    His defence will be his family screaming like banshees and he blurting out transgender nonsense, you do realise who we are dealing with here right?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 42,568 ✭✭✭✭Boggles


    Burke was arrested but the DPP decided not to prosecute and despite what you or I think about their decision, they are invested with the authority to make those calls. That's their job.

    They are not infallible, even if it were it does not preclude opinion about their decisions.



  • Posts: 14,769 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Jesus wept, it’s not me who doesn’t think the ingredients are there to convict him, it’s the DPP’s opinion/decision.



  • Site Banned Posts: 1,745 ✭✭✭Raichų


    with that you’ve definitely just demonstrated you haven’t a clue about how the judicial process works then.

    What evidence is needed? are you joking?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 42,568 ✭✭✭✭Boggles


    they just didn’t find there was enough evidence to pursue charges

    Yes. It is a very simple question. What evidence would they need to "find" to pursue a conviction for trespass?

    Again, here is the legislation. It's not complicated.

    https://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1994/act/2/section/13/enacted/en/html



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 42,568 ✭✭✭✭Boggles


    That's not the question I asked you.

    Again the DPP are not infallible it's why their decisions can be appealed.



  • Posts: 14,769 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Why do I think he would be acquitted if tried for criminal trespass?

    Because the DPP have said the ingredients aren’t there to bring a prosecution for criminal trespass?

    Was that not obvious?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 54,549 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    Is breaching a court order not a criminal offence?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,704 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    No. It's contempt of court, and punishable as such, but it's not inherently a criminal offence.

    (Obviously, depending on the circumstances, the particular act that breaches the court order may also be a criminal offence in itself — e.g. if there's a court order telling me to stay away from you and I violate it by breaking into your house and assaulting you, those acts are crimes. But they would be crimes even without the court order.)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,704 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    Seriously? Being arrested for an offence is not evidence of guilt of that offence. Being bailed on a charge of an offence is not evidence of guilt of that offence. Breaching the terms of that bail is not evidence of guilt of that offence. Having insane and disruptive relatives is not evidence of guilt of that offence.

    This isn't Soviet Russia. You're not found guilty of something merely because you've been accused of it. The evidence, as you've been told repeatedly, has to establish the elements of the offence. None of what you say here has anything to do with the elements of the offence.

    You keep posting a link to the legislation that creates the offence, but you don't appear to have read it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,679 ✭✭✭Hoboo


    Following a case and understanding a case are clearly very different.

    WHS followed A procedure, that doesn’t make it lawful.

    In order to follow a procedure there needs to be a policy, one that has been shared with and understood by employees and it needs to be lawful.

    There was no pronoun policy in place. Why? Because there was and is no law in Ireland that provides for suspension from a workplace for refusing to use pronouns.

    There was no just cause for disciplinary action initially and the original suspension was unlawful. Refusal to follow orders from the head in this instance isn't applicable, no more had he refused to clean the toilets.

    They did not follow procedure, because there was none. He had done nothing unlawful at that stage.

    Collete Colfer - why was she not suspended even WITH a so called gender pronoun policy in place?

    Cue silence…….



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,865 ✭✭✭✭Grayson


    He wasn't suspended for not using a pronoun. He was suspended for interrupting a religious service and harassing the Principal.

    He's the person who didn't follow procedure. Unless you can point to where it's correct procedure to interrupt a religious service.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,704 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    Burke wasn't suspended because he refused to use pronouns. He was suspended because he interrupted school events —specifically, a church service — to air his grievances and proclaim his views, and because, separately, he pursued and harassed the school principal for the same purpose.

    The substantive content of Burke's views about transgender issues and the appropriate way to relate to, and speak to, transgender people is irrelevant to his suspension. No employer needs a "pronoun policy" in order to discipline an employee behaving in this fashion. if Collette Colfer every did anything remotely like what Burke did, I never heard about it. This answers your question as to why she was not suspended.

    The statement that "the original suspension was unlawful" is without foundation. No court or tribunal has found at any state that it was unlawful. On the contrary, the High Court has found that . . .

    The school principal and Board acted in accordance with their obligations under Enoch Burke’s employment contract in initiating and conducting the process which led to suspension of his employment as a teacher.

    . . . and that . . .

    The Board is entitled to a declaration that the decision on 22 August 2022 to put Enoch Burke on paid administrative leave was lawful.

    I don't know who has told you that the suspension was unlawful but, a wild guess says that it was the same person who told you that he was suspended because he "refused to use pronouns". Whoever it was, you should definitely stop listening to them; they are lying to you.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 42,568 ✭✭✭✭Boggles


    Seriously? Being arrested for an offence is not evidence of guilt of that offence. Being bailed on a charge of an offence is not evidence of guilt of that offence. Breaching the terms of that bail is not evidence of guilt of that offence. Having insane and disruptive relatives is not evidence of guilt of that offence.

    Huh?

    Being arrested multiple times for the same offence and having your bail revoked because you can't stop committing the same crime would lend highly to the possibility of a conviction.

    No one suggested being arrested automatically means a conviction, you made that up for some reason.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 42,568 ✭✭✭✭Boggles


    Collete Colfer - why was she not suspended even WITH a so called gender pronoun policy in place?

    No idea who that is, but did she behave like an aggressive attention seeking ape at a church service and accost her boss?

    "Cue silence……."



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,704 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    Absolutely not; no amount of arrests for an offence are evidence that you have committed the offence. Nor is breach of bail conditions evidence that you committed the offence for which you were arrested and then bailed.

    I'm not trying to refute the notion that an arrrest means an automatic conviction; I'm pointing out that an arrest isn't any kind of evidence of guilt at all.

    The courts have strict rules for what is admissible as evidence. The fact that you were arrested for an offence is absolutely not evidence that you are guilty of that offence — it has precisely zero probative value. Nor is the fact that you were arrested for, or even convicted of, the same offence committed on other occasions.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,327 ✭✭✭Sheep breeder


    It’s amazing the amount of people that believe Enoch was suspended became of pronouns and not his actions and conduct towards the school and was jailed for his religious beliefs, maybe there is a job teaching for Enoch at the end after all for people that can’t understand facts and can’t add up one and one and come up with pronoun as the answer to Enoch problems. Enoch real problems is down to mammy, the old saying mother Ireland is still rearing them comes to mind.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,453 ✭✭✭chooseusername


    "Following a case and understanding a case are clearly very different."

    Yes, you can follow the case and not understand it, as your post clearly shows.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 42,568 ✭✭✭✭Boggles


    Absolutely not; no amount of arrests for an offence are evidence that you have committed the offence.

    Of course it is, given the arresting guards actions and opinion is evidence in trespass.

    If the Guard asked him to leave and he didn't that is evidence and central to the crime.

    The crime is dealt with as a summary conviction, the arresting guards testimony would be key admissible evidence.

    It shall be an offence for any person, without lawful authority or reasonable excuse, to fail to comply with a direction given by a member of the Garda Síochána under this section.

    Again, the legislation is not complicated. Why you continue to try and make it so is just bizarre at this stage.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,704 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    I'm not trying to make the legislation complicated; I'm just pointing out that it says what it says, and you can't ignore it and hope to get a conviction on the grounds that the defendant has been arrested and his family are all mad.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,725 ✭✭✭✭salmocab


    Well the Burke’s told them and they wouldn’t lie because that would be a sin.



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