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Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 27,576 ✭✭✭✭phog


    I've said this already but the timing is absolutely crazy, just as the URC kicks off we take out a tier of Irish players to head on a tour to SA.

    If this was Wales playing an international outside the international window this place would go into meltdown but now that Ireland have started to do it, it's becoming acceptable.

    I follow a Cheetah's fan on Twitter and he's not too happy about the timing of the tour either.

    I wonder will we see a SA tour to Ireland to play an EI team, this will be out second tour to SA



  • Posts: 1,345 ✭✭✭ Benjamin Cold Sorbet


    If this was Wales playing an international outside the international window this place would go into meltdown

    This is objective nonsense. Why would "this place" give a shite what Wales do?

    I don't think the timing is ideal either; would prefer it around 3 weeks sooner, but it is what it is. I still think the benefits of the tour to Ireland outweigh the negatives.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 33,906 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    I don't think we'd care too much, but people absolutely used to complain about Wales' fourth AI test removing players from the ProX and there was no shortage of schadenfreude when their fourth test against Aus results in them dropping to 9th in the rankings for the World Cup draw. Course we have followed them on that by having a fourth AI ourselves now.

    I think the timing is about the only place you could conceivably put it. Realistically you need to have the frontline players back before you can gut the provincial squads like this.

    I'm not close-minded to the benefits of it, but it just fundamentally rubs me up the wrong way.

    Post edited by Boards.ie: Mike on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 6,685 ✭✭✭P.Walnuts


    The players who go will likely be replaced by academy lads in the senior 23

    The more quality rugby we can expose these guys to is important



  • Posts: 1,345 ✭✭✭ Benjamin Cold Sorbet


    I find that bizarre - if they want to hinder their own provinces then that's on them (they've done this in recent times too).

    The notion that we're disrespecting the league is a stretch, because the league has been utterly carried by the Irish provinces and the crowds we bring and the buzz we generate since Day 1.



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  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 33,906 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Well, I think it was a product of general frustration at them not taking the league seriously and undermining the whole project.

    I don't disagree on the point that the Irish have carried the league, but this is 100% disrespecting an improved league. Now you can argue it's worth it and I think there is a valid argument there even if I don't agree, but I don't think you can argue that it is not disrespecting it.

    Post edited by Boards.ie: Mike on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,088 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    How is it undermining the league or disrepecting it?

    The provinces can rightly be pointed at by other countries and suggest they have more investment from the IRFU, which allows them to have bigger squad

    Which is exactly why a tournament like this gives the provinces the chance to play more of that squad.

    If the IRFU pulled funding like Wales, sent all their senior players to England/France to save money while using the league as ana academy then I would agree with disrespecting

    But that's not what is happening.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 33,906 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    How is it undermining the league or disrepecting it?

    They are pulling dozens of players out of the squads in the middle of the season to play mickey mouse games in South Africa. This is on top of severely restricting the top tier of players gametime in general. The answer is rather obvious.



  • Posts: 1,345 ✭✭✭ Benjamin Cold Sorbet


    It'll depend entirely on the results. If, like last time, we make front line internationals (who in other scenarios likely wouldn't have played these fixtures) available for them, then to me it's very hard to argue we're "disrespecting" anything.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 3,349 ✭✭✭hold my beer


    And yet we've 2 teams in the Semi finals this weekend. We aren't disrespecting anything.



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  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 33,906 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    The frontline internationals would normally be back around this time anyway, so I wouldn't consider it early. I imagine the timing is done pretty much for that specific reason. Though I would wager the LvM game would normally be their first one back, they might be in a round early I guess.

    Ultimately though, for me it doesn't depend on the results. I don't like that they are doing it. I'm aware it is an essentially emotional viewpoint, but it is essentially dragging a large chunk of players out of the provinces because the IRFU just don't think the games are that important. And I think that attitude stinks.

    Post edited by Boards.ie: Mike on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,088 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    Players who are squad or just out of the academy

    Players who in reality like the last time would at best maybe have a slot on a bench

    You don't like the tour, I get that, but making up it is insulting the league is nonsense.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 33,906 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Well there was no EI tour this year for one. But that also doesn't really change anything.



  • Administrators Posts: 56,559 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    Of course it's disrespectful to the league, this seems pretty obvious.

    The IRFU would never, ever do this if a European game was scheduled, but they're more than happy to pull players away from league games.

    It can be true that this tour benefits Ireland, and it can also be true that this tour is another sign that the IRFU care little for the league. Imagine the RFU or FRU tried to pull players out of GP / T14 games to go play Mickey Mouse games in SA. There would be uproar because they take their leagues very seriously.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 3,349 ✭✭✭hold my beer


    Yes but we restricted players game time like you said. Don't see an issue with an EI tour, the players will be missing for a few weeks, and not all of them will be 1st team players.



  • Posts: 1,345 ✭✭✭ Benjamin Cold Sorbet


    No, the frontline internationals in a non-RWC year typically didn't return before Weeks 6-7, whereas now the impacted weeks are weeks 2-4 of the URC season here, so that's definitely a little earlier than usual.

    I posted this potential squad back when news first broke about it, and while there are some concentrations in certain positions that might be unlikely, this is the sort of calibre of player likely to go IMO:

    I think based on that Ulster are probably worst affected (losing guys potentially like Wilson, Izuchukwu, Sheridan, McCann, etc), but will be interesting to see how it turns out as Ulster are in SA at broadly the same time as the EI tour. Happy to hear arguments for who else might be in the mix, but it doesn't look like it'll overly weaken Leinster or Munster IMO.

    Post edited by Boards.ie: Mike on


  • Posts: 1,345 ✭✭✭ Benjamin Cold Sorbet


    The teams some of the provinces put out those game weeks will likely be stronger than the teams they'd have put out without an EI tour.

    This "disrespecting the league" thing just feels like the latest thing to complain about re the IRFU.



  • Administrators Posts: 56,559 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    This "disrespecting the league" thing just feels like the latest thing to complain about re the IRFU.

    It is not a new complaint, so I don't agree with your conclusion. The IRFU (and indeed the other unions) having a totally half-arsed view of the URC/ProWhatever has been a complaint for as long as I can remember.

    Post edited by Boards.ie: Mike on


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 33,906 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    No, the frontline internationals in a non-RWC year typically didn't return before Weeks 6-7, whereas now the impacted weeks are weeks 2-4 of the URC season here, so that's definitely a little earlier than usual.

    The season has been shoved a bit later though. Round 6 is October 26th and the last week before the AI window. Pretty sure they'd be back well before then regardless.

    The squad looks reasonable. Personally I'd rather Prendergast was establishing himself at Leinster, and I'm sure some Ulster supporters would think the same about Izzy and McCann. I think all 3 are likely to get capped at the least against Fiji anyway.

    Post edited by Boards.ie: Mike on


  • Posts: 1,345 ✭✭✭ Benjamin Cold Sorbet


    And yet the competition has steadily gone from strength to strength, with the Irish sides always there at the business end of the season, and near the top of the attendances charts etc too.

    I wish the Welsh, Scottish and Italians would disrespect the league as much as we do.



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  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 33,906 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    At least from my perspective I have very little else to complain about re the IRFU and I didn't like the EI tour the first time round either.

    It absolutely objectively had successes and I think it massively contributed to Crowley being picked against Australia. I just wish everyone took the domestic league more seriously.

    Post edited by Boards.ie: Mike on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,002 ✭✭✭RichieRich_89


    I went through a few weeks ago seeing who you could pick that would still leave the provinces with strong XXIIIs to play in the URC:

    Lh: Jack Boyle, Callum Reid, Temi Lasisi

    H: Lee Barron, Eoghan Clarke, James McCormick

    Th: Fiachna Barrett, Ronan Foxe, Darragh McSweeney

    Sr: Jean Kleyn, Conor O’Tighearnaigh, Darragh Murray, Joe Hopes

    Bs: Josh Murphy, Lorcan O’Loughlin

    Os: Reuben Crothers, Liam Molony

    No. 8: James Culhane, James McNabney

    Sh: Matthew Devine, Fintan Gunne, Colm Reilly

    Oh: Sam Prendergast, Tony Butler

    Lw: Aaron Sexton, Chay Mullins

    Ic: Jude Postlethwaite, John Devine

    Oc: Hugh Gavin, Hugh Cooney

    Rw: Tommy O’Brien, Shane Jennings

    Fb: Jack Kelly, Patrick Campbell

    URC sides:

    Leinster: 1. Michael Milne, 2. John McKee, 3. Thomas Clarkson, 4. Brian Deeny, 5. Alexis Soroka, 6. Diarmuid Mangan, 7. Will Connors, 8. Max Deegan, 9. Cormac Foley, 10. Ross Byrne/Harry Byrne, 11. Andrew Osborne, 12. Ben Brownlee, 13. Liam Turner, 14. Robert Russell, 15. Henry McErlean; 16. Gus McCarthy, 17. Paddy McCarthy, 18. Rory McGuire, 19. Martin Moloney, 20. Scott Penny, 21. Luke McGrath, 22. Charlie Tector, 23. Aitzol Arenzana-King

    Munster: 1. Loughman/Wycherley, 2. Scannell, 3. Ryan, 4. Wycherley, 5. Evan O’Connell, 6. O’Donoghue, 7. Hodnett, 8. Coombes, 9. Patterson, 10. Burns, 11. Daly, 12. Nankivell, 13. Farrell, 14. Kilgallen, 15. Haley; 16. Barron, 17. Wycherley/Kieran Ryan/Mark Donnelly, 18. Archer/Salanoa, 19. Hurley, 20. Kendellen, 21. Coughlan, 22. Scannell, 23. Sean O’Brien

    Connact: 1. Buckley, 2. Heffernan, 3. Aungier, 4. Joyce, 5. Niall Murray, 6. Prendergast, 7. Oliver, 8. O’Brien, 9. Blade, 10. Carty, 11. Smith, 12. Forde, 13. O’Conor; 14. Bolton, 15. Cordero; 16. Tierney-Martin, 17. Dooley, 18. Illo, 19. Dowling, 20. Jansen, 21. Ben Murphy, 22. Hawkshaw, 23. Ralston

    Ulster: 1. Warwick, 2. Stewart. 3. Wilson, 4. Sheridan, 5. Treadwell, 6. Izuchukwu, 7. Rea, 8. McCann, 9. Cooney, 10. Flannery, 11. Lowry, 12. Moore, 13. Baloucoune, 14. Kok, 15. McIlroy; 16. Andrew, 17. O’Sullivan, 18. Moore, 19. O’Connor, 20. Rea, 21. Doak, 22. Humphreys, 23. Moxham

    But if internationals might be back for the URC that could change the equation quite a bit.

    Post edited by Boards.ie: Mike on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,017 ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    Players who in reality like the last time would at best maybe have a slot on a bench

    This is simply untrue. Just for Munster alone, there were lots of players selected last time who were in and around our start 15/23.



  • Administrators Posts: 56,559 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    And yet the competition has steadily gone from strength to strength

    This is some serious re-writing of history. The league was an absolute joke for years. They have made balls ups with sponsorships (let's not forget they had to go an entire season without a sponsor as nobody thought their product was worth giving money to), they have made balls ups with tv deals.

    The league was pulled up out of a mire by the arrival of the South African teams (the 4 current ones, not the 2 crap ones that they brought on board initially) who injected some desperately needed quality but also money into the competition.

    While it is not as bad as it was 4 or 5 years ago, it still has some half-arsed-ness about it. We still get players pulled out of league games for emerging tours. We still have unions scheduling test matches outside of test windows and pulling players out of league games. We still have nonsensical referee selections, Irish refs in Irish derbies, Munster refs in Munster games.

    Strength to strength is quite the mental gymnastics.

    Post edited by Boards.ie: Mike on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,017 ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    Happy to hear arguments for who else might be in the mix, but it doesn't look like it'll overly weaken Leinster or Munster IMO.

    Even then it'll depend on injuries. Munster notionally had Conway and Earls back but both were injured while Nash and Daly were on the EI tour.

    Then, iirc, Haley was injured and Zebo (and Liam Coombes) got injured.

    It left us with Carbery at FB and 2 academy wingers. In total, I think our entire back 3 had ~2 starts in their respective positions for Munster.

    Maybe that was an outlier of injuries concentrated in one position/area, but it's always a possibility.

    Post edited by Boards.ie: Mike on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,017 ✭✭✭✭aloooof




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,002 ✭✭✭RichieRich_89


    Yes, and you can probably figure on about 20% of your players being injured at any one time. I'm plucking that figure out of thin air to some extent, but also I seem to remember reading it somewhere.

    But anyway it seems the international players will be filtering back in by then if the tour's in October rather than September. If Leinster have Porter back, for example, both Boyle and Paddy McCarthy could feature for the EI side without it overly weakening Leinster.



  • Subscribers, Paid Member Posts: 45,377 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    It overlooks Leinster having Snyman and connacht having hurley Langton as well



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,083 ✭✭✭Former Former Former


    If we're serious about developing depth for the national team, then we have to try something different and this is a good way to do it. It's absolutely better than a random Wolfhounds game when the team meets up in the car park an hour before the game and no-one learns anything.

    Is it a reasonable trade-off to weaken the provinces for a couple of URC games? If it increases our prospects at the next RWC, even marginally, then it's not even a question in my mind.

    But does it weaken them? Looking back at the teams selected during the last EI tour, they were all pretty strong - am I missing something? What's the actual complaint?

    And even if they are weaker - you could also look at the EI tour as giving more opportunities to the next tier of provincial players too. Is that a bad thing?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,088 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    If it was a European game the chances of the squad playing would be less 😂

    Seriously lads, you complain the IRFU don't change things, you complain when they don't.

    None of the players that went on that tour or the tour itself affected any of the provinces and how they finished up at the end of the season

    All the rest of this is just noise from supporters who no matter what the IRFU do will still complain. If they do a tour next time and pick no Ulster players, you will be on crying about bias. It's a no win so IRFU should plough on



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