Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

It's a figure of speech - it means he wasn't consistently started or playing at 10 until that Sharks game realistically in Europe.

It matters because as a 22-year-old player with barely any rugby behind him, he could hardly expect to be playing 10 for Ireland if he wasn't playing there for Munster.

It's a single game following a season where he was clearly behind Healy.

It has been widely reported that the provinces had the ability to pull guys from the EI tour if they felt they absolutely needed them during that window, and the player most frequently cited at the time in relation to this was Ben Healy, who Munster felt they needed as their first choice 10 during that window. If Munster saw Crowley as their first choice 10 (ahead of Healy, given Carbery was injured) then Crowley wouldn't have gone on the EI tour and Healy would have.

No, I'm also inferring it from the previous whole season where Healy played more than double the minutes of Jack Crowley.

The rumour at the time of the tour was the Ireland wanted to bring Ben Healy on the EI tour and Munster pulled him out because they needed him.

He hadn't played a lot of 10, even off the bench at that point. I've made the point about three times now and you're consistently ignoring it that he'd had less than 550 mins at 10 coming into the season, and then only a handful of additional minutes there coming into the 6N. He'd played the majority of minutes that very season at 12 and 15.

He was 22 years old and had a tiny body of work in any position at that point. Ciaran Frawley is a pretty different scenario coming into this 6Ns (where once again other players are injured) given he's demonstrated a strong body of work over the past 5 seasons or so. FWIW, I don't agree with him being in the Ireland squad as a 10 either (and think he's there mostly because of his versatility).

Why would a coaching staff trying to bed in a system build around a guy whos immediately gone for 2 months?

And why does starter vs backup suddenly matter because it dosent elsewhere

My logic is simple - but I'll lay it out here again for you:

At the start of the 2022/23 season Jack Crowley wasn't on Ireland's radar. He was third choice for his province, had a tiny handful of starts at 10. He clearly looked talented but he was very young, and I don't anyone anywhere including Jack Crowley would have said on Sept 1st 2022 that 12 months later he'd be in Ireland's RWC, including Jack himself.

What changed that?

Undoubtedly a few factors, one of the biggest being Mike Prendergast came in, changed Munster's attack to a style that suited Crowley's game. But even with that, he needed games at 10 to show that.

If the EI tour doesn't happen, I think he remains backing up the other two and being asked to deputise in other positions because of his physical talent. I supremely doubt he'd have been capped against Fiji and Australia, and without that, and having hardly played at 10 for Munster over the next few weeks, he definitely wouldn't have made the 6N squad.

The thing that massively changed this in the eyes of the Irish coaches was when he went to SA with the EI squad, started 3 games and played well. They saw him up close and likely saw his talent, his combativeness, his aggression, his leadership and his composure. I strongly suspect the report from the Irish coaches back to Andy Farrell following the EI tour was gushing in its praise of Crowley, and on the back of that he was the bench for the Ireland A game, and following a few injuries, made his debut against Australia.

I don't think without the EI tour there is anyway he starts that game, and without starting that game (and generally acquitting himself well) he doesn't make the 6N squad either (given how he barely featured at 10 for Munster in the lead up to it).

It's still not a given he wouldn't have been picked for the RWC anyway given how well he finished the season, but I'd say it was less likely if he hadn't been around the squad environment for the 6N.

I've laid my logic on this out now, quite clearly, about 5 different times. I have no idea what point you're trying to make, other than just taking pot shots at the Irish coaching team.

As I said, about 20 posts ago now it feels like, Jack Crowley is probably the best example of how well the EI tour can work.

Now can you try and clearly explain your position on this please?

2 months?

This is the latest fairly wild and entirely incorrect assertion around the EI tour - the players had a 3 day camp, and then played 3 games in a 10 day period.

No, he wouldn't have.

We've already laid this out - of the 12 Munster games leading to the 6N that year that he was there for, he started 2 games at 10, and in the second of those, he was moved to the centre and Ben Healy was moved to out half early in the second half. The vast vast bulk of his minutes in those games were coming at 12 or 15 - he started one game at 15 and was moved there in 2 other games, and started 4 games at 12. Of the 5 games where he wore the 22 shirt, he came on at 10 once, and in the others was always at 12 or 15.

There is no way you can claim he'd have been picked as one of three 10s in the Ireland 6N squad based off this.

If you go back through the threads on this very forum you'll see multiple posts where people were frustrated at how little time at 10 he was getting at that time.

Yeah, if you consider the context that it was a RWC season, and it was a really settled squad that won a Grand Slam in 2023.

Don't get me wrong, summer tours or Nov internationals further away from a RWC, the bar for breaking through into thw Ireland squad is lower and we've seen the coaching ticket take chances on guys without as much experience, but if you take the context of that particular season into the mix, there is no way Jack Crowley would likely have made the 6N and therefore the RWC squad.

You don't, and obviously Ireland didn't, given guys like Joe McCarthy, Jack Crowley, Mack Hansen, Jeremy Loughman and Jimmy O'Brien all made the breakthrough into the squad in the last 12 months before the tournament.

But, unquestionably as the tournament comes closer the squad is getting more and more settled and the ability to break through is diminishing as that time progresses.

I still don't understand what your point is here with all of this - setting aside the unquestionably frustrating timing of the EI tour, it's still something the Irish coaches are to be commended for and it worked very well for us.