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General Premier League Thread 2023-24 Mod Note in op 27/6/23 And 21/05/24

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 28,079 ✭✭✭✭noodler


    Its fair to ask if 11 goals was enough to sustain a title race from our most expensive forward purchase ever.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,703 ✭✭✭doc_17


    Yeah, I’d be a bit skeptic of whether Darwin can be the real deal for Liverpool. It’s mad how often he shoots straight at the keeper, the chance against Palace last week should have been a goal. But as others said, Jones should have got one or Salah should have got one, to blame him solely is missing the big picture.

    Post edited by doc_17 on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 34,892 ✭✭✭✭CSF




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,847 ✭✭✭✭pjohnson


    His assists are fantastic, his work rate is fantastic, his positioning is generally perfect, but his finishing is awful. I think it seems logical that if he was a better finisher the other forwards wouldn't have had to been ran into the ground if ye were already ahead in games.

    Its the same issue with Onana at United their biggest weakness (Onana's case - basic goalkeeping & Nunez - actual finishing) is the actual most important part of their position. It cant really be ignored.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,902 ✭✭✭✭Fitz*


    Nunez is the most expensive signing alright, but he's not the primary forward at Liverpool. That is Salah, and Liverpool play towards/through Salah the majority of the time so he will be the primary source of goals, and take penalties etc. Nunez's numbers would look differently if he was the primary forward, was first choice on penalties etc. Liverpool have been awarded 6 pens this season. I think Nunez took and missed 1 of those 6. Hypothetically and for arguments sake, let's say he scored 4 of the 6, his goals scored would look a whole lot different.

    Some context is needed.

    Liverpool paid a similar fee for Nunez to Newcastle paid for Isak and their records are similar enough this season. I would classify Isak as the primary Newcastle attacker, and he was lauded as "a superstar" by a poster in this thread a week or two ago. The 2 players have started the same number of games with similar enough minutes played overall. Nunez has 11 non-pen PL goals, but Isak has 13 non-pen PL goals. Similar enough record there from open play if you ask me. Including penalties, Nunez remains the same but Isak jumps up to 17. if you add in assists, Nunez's total PL goal contributions would be larger than Isak's. PL goal contributions this season stands at 19 Nunez, 18 Isak, including penalties. Excluding penalties, so basically open play, Nunez has 19 PL goal contributions and Isak has 14. One is regarded as "a superstar" but one is constantly called a flop, rubbish, the reason why Liverpool won't win the league etc.

    And if we go through the top 6/7 PL clubs and compare Nunez vs the secondary goal scorer in each club it is a similar story. Going by total goals scored in the PL, and taking the secondary player at each club, the ranking looks like this (penalties included);

    Foden 14

    Nunez 11

    Richarlison 10

    Gordon 10

    Havertz 9

    Bailey/Luiz 9

    Garnacho/Hojlund/Rashford/McTominay 7



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  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 18,760 Mod ✭✭✭✭DM_7


    Diaz, Jota, Nunez and Salah are all all at fault in some way for Liverpool finding themselves a whole 2 points off top with 6 games to play.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 23,188 Mod ✭✭✭✭Bounty Hunter


    Losing 4-1 at home to Burnley. Can Sheff Utd just be relegated already. Even if they win all 5 of their remaining games (I doubt they will get more than 2pts tbh) which would almost double their current tally…they would still only end up on 31 points.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,054 ✭✭✭✭L'prof


    Some amount of hoops being jumped through here. If Salah leaves in the summer who is the “primary forward” at Liverpool?



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 36,250 CMod ✭✭✭✭ShamoBuc




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,902 ✭✭✭✭Fitz*


    And what hoops are they exactly? Because people are trying to compare Nunez to Haaland et al and just pretend that Salah doesn't exist?

    If Salah leaves next season, and Liverpool line up with Nunez as their primary forward, then you can compare Nunez to the primary forwards at others clubs on how they also do next season. Because there is no manager at the club next season, we don't know how Liverpool will set up, and what players will be there etc.



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  • Posts: 1,045 ✭✭✭ Van Tall Cemetery


    Since when was Salah a primary forward? Whatever that is.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,847 ✭✭✭✭pjohnson


    Can't make head nor tail of it, its Kloppesque.

    Simple fact whether 4th 5th 6th choice Nunez has the worst feckin big chance conversion rate in the the top 5 European league at 20%.

    The chances are falling to Nunez and he hasn't a bulls notion how to finish them. Someone should really tell Jurgen not to keep giving the non-primary forward the primary chances he cant take.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,159 ✭✭✭✭eh i dunno


    Laughable isn't it. He's their number 9 and plays down the middle as a centre forward so he's their primary forward whatever that is.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 35,172 ✭✭✭✭~Rebel~


    so by this do you reckon the chief burden of goals was on Firmino for all the years prior then? Liverpool have played a system of the centre forward creating space and opportunity for the wide forwards coming inside for, like, 7 years now.

    Nunez finishing is a problem. Of course it is. But again, he’s far from the main reason Liverpool won’t win the league - and he’s certainly one of the reasons the team has been in the running for so long.

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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,847 ✭✭✭✭pjohnson


    But the whole point is Firmino didnt get himself into the final positions like Nunez repeatedly is. You even say it, with Firmino, it was a system designed to create space and opportunities for the wingers to take advantage of. With current Liverpool Nunez isn't playing anything like Firmino's role, and those chances are instead falling to Nunez who is missing them



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 20,285 ✭✭✭✭y0ssar1an22


    wolves really should have taken the lead there



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 20,285 ✭✭✭✭y0ssar1an22


    red for tackle on havertz?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 30,161 ✭✭✭✭Quazzie




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 35,172 ✭✭✭✭~Rebel~


    Wouldn't agree with that impression… he's still doing the Firmino stuff of dropping off deep and wide and pulling defenders around for Mo and Diaz to move into - and he has the assists and chance creations to show for it (he's not quite as good at this as Bobby was, but it's definitely still a big part of his role). And all the chances are not falling to him - a huuuuuge problem in the past few months is the chances Mo and Diaz are missing. Nunez does also do the extra thing of getting on the end of things in a way Bobby used not do as much in his last years, and more-so creates a lot of chances for himself.

    To illustrate, here's Haaland's heatmap this season as an actual centre forward, followed by Darwin's heatmap this season as someone with a lot more deeper lying responsibilities.

    Haaland.png Darwin.png

    As already said, his finishing isn't good enough, and when he misses chances it looks bad, but he's added a tonne of value all round even still. Put simply, Liverpool for 75% of this season have been a much better side for him being on the pitch, and a much more dangerous side with him on the field - hence the title run. It's just wrong to say he's the cause of not winning the league. Given the way the team is playing all over the park, the amount of early goals being conceded, the exhaustion and injury of the midfield, and the huge chances that Mo and Diaz etc are also missing over the past few weeks, it's obviously a lot more than just one player.

    Post edited by ~Rebel~ on

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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 20,285 ✭✭✭✭y0ssar1an22


    1-0 arsenal on the stroke of HT



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 8,364 ✭✭✭El Gato De Negocios


    Lovely. Hopefully they hold out to keep city honest, or as honest as a corrupt organisation like them can be.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,902 ✭✭✭✭Fitz*


    The same way that Benzema (or Higuain) was Real Madrid's main first choice forward while Cristiano Ronaldo was there yeah? They were 'playing the number 9' there for the majority of Ronaldo's career in Spain.

    Is Havertz Arsenal's main forward now? Or is Jesus? Because it if is either of them, then they have bigger problems to face than Liverpool as Nunez is out-performing both. I say that Saka is Arsenal's primary forward and he is not the central forward Arsenal try to get attacks either to him or through him. Was Weghorst Man Utd's main forward last season, because he played central? Or Martial? Is Hojlund the main forward this season? Absolutely not, it's Rashford.

    Nunez has 8 assists in the PL this season. 5 of them are to Salah, so there is a clear directive at times there that Liverpool play to Nunez centrally who can then play in Salah for the goal-scoring. It is not too dissimilar to when Firmino is around with using Nunez as the central player who then brings the wide players into the action closer to goal where they can attack the ball better. Firmino used to drop deep and link up there that way but Nunez is more Drogba-esque in terms of being a one man battering ram using his pace and power to take control of more direct balls, or into channels etc. BTW Drogba scored 10 & 12 goals in his first 2 PL seasons. Actually, Drogba's average over his (first) Chelsea stint of 8 seasons was 12 PL goals per season. Nunez is on 9 & 11 so far.

    That October to February ish run of games was brilliant and a clear indication of how the attack functioned with Nunez and Salah being a great combo. That game where Liverpool created the most xG ever in a game against Newcastle (Salah scored 2, one assisted by Nunez) and then Chelsea game too. Salah was not available that game, so Nunez then became the primary focus of attacks. Nunez single handedly destroyed the Chelsea defence that night, even while being double marked. He didn't get the goal but he actually was involved in nearly every good attack that night. Think he hit the post a few times in those games, and the keepers made some incredible saves but that all gets forgotten over the course of the season because Liverpool, the team, hit a slump in April



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,288 ✭✭✭pavb2


    Relentless for Arsenal they play Chelsea midweek followed by Spurs away next weekend



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,054 ✭✭✭✭L'prof


    @Fitz* Is Havertz Arsenal's main forward now? Or is Jesus? Because it if is either of them, then they have bigger problems to face than Liverpool as Nunez is out-performing both. I say that Saka is Arsenal's primary forward and he is not the central forward Arsenal try to get attacks either to him or through him.

    Arsenal’s biggest problem is that they don’t have one tbh. Yes, they share the goals around and that’s fantastic but in the really tight games they sometimes struggle to find that bit of magic to get it over the line. I thought it would have been a priority this season but I’m looking forward to seeing who comes in to solve that problem for them



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 35,172 ✭✭✭✭~Rebel~


    Yeah… I can see why they didn't go for an out and out striker, with someone like Havertz being a good foil for the wide players - the assumption must have been that Saka and Martinelli would continue to increase their already solid goalscoring from last year as they mature further. Instead Saka's scoring has stayed around the same, while Martinelli has dropped from 15 league goals down to just 6. They've a decision this summer now on how they choose to set up - do they stay with the wide-goalscorer plan, or start trying to go more central.

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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,041 ✭✭✭✭citytillidie


    Didn't see the game but Forest have released this statement

    ******



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,392 ✭✭✭d22ontour


    Could have had at least one I think.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,902 ✭✭✭✭Fitz*


    That's a very weird statement by Forest l, and it's not their first time either. Nearly every time they are on TV there is a reference to their referee analyst. Lodge your complaint in private if you want to, but going on about what club a VAR supporters and trying initiate a public pile on, from the official club account, is somewhat weird behaviour



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 34,892 ✭✭✭✭CSF


    Agree the statement is weird. But jesus, the officiating was bad in that game.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 436 ✭✭Patrick Mahomes


    Fair play to Forest for calling out how bad the refereeing and the usage of VAR has been this season. They will get fined heavily for that tweet but they are not wrong.

    Regards,

    P.



This discussion has been closed.
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