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Double Track - North Dublin

  • 13-04-2024 1:34pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 59 ✭✭


    Crawled at snails pace on an off peak drogheda- connolly service this week from howth jct to Connolly section.

    4 track along with signalling improvements is in a pipeline.

    The doubling of track would mean hundreds of houses, apts along with stations, bridges, roads being demolished. Cost would be huge. Just wondering how realistic the project is.

    10 min dart frequency from drogheda without passing loops is going to make enterprise trains be in the same snails pace position.



«1

Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 1,343 ✭✭✭Consonata


    Fourtracking the northern line is due to go to consultation and a report will be released on various options, its going to tender this summer with it being finalised at the end of August.



  • Registered Users Posts: 266 ✭✭Ronald Binge Redux


    Moving the Northern line to four track removes the issues with any potential branch to the Airport (supplementary to, not substitute for Metrolink) and regenerating the Drogheda - Navan branch (similarly, supplementary to M3 Parkway - Navan; and not a substitute for it).



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,242 ✭✭✭gjim


    I suspect that Dublin will have a 2nd if not a 3rd metro line before the Northern line gets 4 tracked. Most of the benefit for 4-tracking accrues to the Enterprise - DART speeds would not be improved while DART capacity would increase by only 10% or 15%. In any cost benefit analysis this will never work - Belfast/Dublin carries about 3 or 4 thousands a day on average - there are bus routes in Dublin that carry more than that. Say - optimistically - 4 tracking could be done for 2B - spending this amount to improve journey times for 3k passengers a day will never stack up.



  • Registered Users Posts: 655 ✭✭✭loco_scolo


    3million people live in counties Down, Antrim, Armagh, Louth and Dublin, so I think it's safe to say there is untapped demand there. The North and South are moving in one clear direction and that needs to be supported by proper infrastructure. The economic potential of the corridor is enormous.

    Anyone doing a CBA on the route and assuming 3,000 daily passengers would be seriously misinformed.



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 23,163 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Not really, if Metrolink is built then there is little benefit to a Clongriffin line to the airport.

    The journey time from the city center to the airport via Metrolink would be much faster then via a quad tracked northern line and Clongriffin line. And it would be much cheaper to extend Metrolink from Swords to Donabate (shorter distance and no need for second station at the airport) than it would be to build the Clongriffin to Airport branch.

    The CBA for this line, even with quad tracking in place would still be very poor versus extending Metrolink.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 59 ✭✭Disco24


    I think the push back from residents would be huge on loss of property. Does the new ETCS provide a solution to snail pace of drogheda commuter service.

    Other option I thought was passing loops at a redesigned killester station using grounds from Clontarf golf club and maybe similiar at raheny and clontarf Rd that wouldn't make ground lost a political land mine with houses being lost.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,505 ✭✭✭✭lawred2




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,009 ✭✭✭Charles Babbage


    They should have bought every house that came on sale here for years, and bought ones across the road so that if people are not happy you can offer them that house.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,852 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    I wonder if it wouldn't be cheaper and quicker to just assign this line exclusively to DART and build another, more direct north-south link from scratch (connect the Western line to Heuston, then Dunboyne to Drogheda) for the long distance services.

    if it was DART services alone on the corridor, they wouldn't really benefit from multi tracking because DARTs are all "all stops" trains.

    If you're going to spend a fortune to remove interference from long distance trains, why not end up with a shorter intercity route at the end of it? (Plus, if you make room for four tracks, you can expand DART along the same corridor).

    At some point, we will have to make a choice between keeping a mainline rail station close to the city centre (Connolly), or building a high frequency, efficient urban rail system for Dublin and moving the intercity services to Heuston.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,151 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    To be clear, what is happening is an EU funded feasibility study into what capacity expansion options exist on the Northern Line, and their cost. That feasibility study is now going to tender.

    We are a long way off any public consultation at this stage, as this project is just the initial assessment. That being said, it will provide a blueprint for going forward,

    I do think people seem to be putting the cart before the horse here somewhat, by making rather sweeping statements about what is and isn’t possible and massive CPO activity. None of us can say that with any certainty.

    The whole point of this study is to assess the options, and report back on them, and rather than writing everything off, it might be more prescient to actually wait and see what the study actually concludes.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 655 ✭✭✭loco_scolo


    A new line would require an even higher level of CPO or tunnelling, which would be many times more expensive than widening the existing corridor.



  • Registered Users Posts: 418 ✭✭Ireland trains


    Is there a plan for what happens north of Malahide to allow Enterprise services to overtake, as 7 stopping services per hour at peak is more than currently exist towards Bray where Wexford trains crawl along.

    Also interesting to note this infographic on Dart+ website that commuter services will retain their current stopping pattern.

    https://www.dartplus.ie/S3mvc/media/DART-Coastal-North-PC2/Revised-Train-Frequency-Graphic-P04-FINAL.pdf



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,972 ✭✭✭✭Zebra3


    So your solution for removing the likes of the Enterprise service from one DART line is to move it to what is due to become another DART line? 🫤



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,371 ✭✭✭markpb


    That’s not how I understood their proposal. Leave the northern Dart line alone and build a new underground line for suburban and IC services from Heuston or Connolly to somewhere like Malahide. Digging another metro would be expensive but quad tracking will almost definitely involve not only CPOing houses but also rebuilding every station along the way with no benefit for the stations because nothing on the express lines would ever stop there.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,852 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    @Zebra3 No, because I said that you'd be able to run DART services on the corridor if it was upgraded to four tracks later. The idea was to build new, but plan ahead for expansion.

    @loco_solo Yes, it's stupidly expensive, more so than adding passing loops onto every DART station on the Northern line, but it could be better value. The All Island review recommended a link between Western line and South Western (my guess, between Leixlip Confey and Clondalkin, which which provide Lucan with a rail station). Adding that link would leave only the Belfast service needing to terminate at Connolly… but it's only the Belfast service that interacts with DART anyway. Effectively, extra tracks means here mean you're spending a fortune to facilitate one intercity route, and at the end of it, you've no extra catchment.

    The routing I was thinking of was from the existing Dunboyne station via Ashbourne, Duleek and rejoining the Nothern line at Drogheda. The cost here would be mostly build cost, not CPOs, and it's less likely to get NIMBY'd too…people in the outer suburbs are more likely to use the service once it's in place. Building this line would also make a Navan-Dublin service cheaper to build out in future.

    Of course, I haven't estimated any costs, and I know it would be more expensive. but when we built the road network, we weren't afraid of new offline routes if they improved connectivity. We should have the same attitude to rail.



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 23,163 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    The All Island Rail report estimates quad tracking the Northern line at 1 billion. A tunnel from Heuston to Malahide would easily top 10 billion.

    The advantage of the South Western line is that it is being quad tracked under DART+ SW project and thus it could handle the extra traffic. The AIRR already has the proposal to route Sligo trains to this line.

    The downside is that it would increase the Dublin to Belfast journey times (potentially significantly) and would thus make it less attractive to users of the Enterprise. Plus I suspect most Enterprise users much prefer to go to Connolly, then Heuston which is far less attractive destination.

    As LXFlyer says we will need to wait and see the outcome of the Northern line report.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,972 ✭✭✭✭Zebra3


    The suggestion from one poster was to join the likes of the Enterprise in at Dunboyne.

    Not sure how the proposal of a line from Maynooth-Leixlip area to the SW line (which I fully endorse) would be workable for bringing those services to/from Dunboyne.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,852 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    @bk I don't see the journey times being significantly longer. The mainline stretch would be slightly shorter than the current route. The big disadvantage of course is that Heuston is further from the city centre than Connolly is (though neither qualify as "central"), meaning most passengers will have a longer transfer to their destination, so I expect any plan like this would also eventually need the support of both LUAS Lucan and what is now called DART+ Tunnel to improve access between Heuston and the South Inner City in particular.

    DART tunnels aside, tunnelling shouldn't be necessary for any of what I proposed. The West-Southwest link, plus extra tracking or passing loops on a little of the existing Dunboyne line would be necessary, and of course a major new build from there to Drogheda, but no widening or tunnelling in expensive, densely-built areas like North Dublin.



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 23,163 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    You would build a Dunboyne to Maynooth area line, along with the Maynooth to SW line. So it would look something like, Drogheda to Navan, Navan to Dunboyne, Dunboyne to Maynooth and Maynooth to SW Line.

    You could also skip Navan and build a new line direct from Drogheda through Dunboyne and onto SW line.

    But you are correct, just plugging straight into the Dunboyne line and onto the Western line wouldn’t work. Not that I think any of that makes sense.

    Hard disagree on your comment on Connolly not being central! It is right in the heart of the IFSC and Docklands, which is where many business travellers from Belfast are heading and it is only a few minutes walk from O’Connell St!

    It doesn’t get much more central then that and vastly more central then Heuston. No one is going to be happy being dumped out in Heuston.

    Also it would definitely be slower and longer route, with a longer journey time.

    Plus I’m really not sure it would actually be cheaper than what the AIRR is proposing.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,972 ✭✭✭✭Zebra3


    As much as I’d love to see Dunboyne to Maynooth, I’d be curious of what route it would take. Unless it goes to join the line west of Maynooth, you’d be left with just going through Carton House as the only option. Between Maynooth and Leixlip is either CH, Intel or land reserved for Intel.



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  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 23,163 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Straight throw the golf course. Perhaps cut and cover, so you can put the golf course back afterwards, since touching a golf course seems to be the biggest tradegy in Ireland!

    Though really Kris should be laying this out as it is his idea, I think it is all a bad idea and complete non starter. No one is going to accept the Enterprise being pulled out of Connolly and dumbed out to Heuston instead!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,206 ✭✭✭✭loyatemu


    If this is the thread for discussing this project, can we at least have the title corrected. It's already double track.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,371 ✭✭✭markpb


    Why do you think an IC tunnel to Malahide would be so expensive? MetroLink is about the same distance, requires the construction of numerous stations and the CPO of a handful of properties in the city centre. The only additional complexity I can think of (as a non-engineer) is ventilation for diesels but, given the timeframe, the Enterprise stock could be converted to battery hybrid units to avoid the need for that.



  • Registered Users Posts: 59 ✭✭Disco24


    Suggestion I had was double track from donabate via airport to glasnevin jct then onto Spencer Dock or connolly, 2 tracks with planned metro gauge, 2 heavy rail. This would allow belfast and cork line to access airport and free up Northern line from connolly to donabate to be just dart.

    Yea it's going to bring cost up of metro huge but there's got to be synergies.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,972 ✭✭✭✭Zebra3


    The guts of 20km of tunnelling for the daily numbers on the Enterprise (including growth)?

    Would it pass a CBA?


    Would love it to, but it seems a massive push…



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 23,163 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Because no one has proposed an intercity tunnel to Malahide! You need to get to Drogheda to avoid quad tracking.

    The AIRR looked at the idea of a Drogheda to Dublin Airport to Heuston tunnel but it was rightfully rejected IMO. Instead they believe the East - West tunnel as a better option.

    The AIRR doesn’t give a cost for this Airport to Heuston option, but it is roughly twice the length of the cross city tunnel and the cost for that per the AIRR was 5.3 Billion in 2021 prices, so probably 10 billion!

    That is sort of the point, it will cost as much as Metrolink, while having a fraction of the benefit.

    Metrolink is going to be very expensive but it still has an excellent CBA as it is a Metro, mass transit carrying massive number of people to work and school every day from the likes of Swords.

    This idea wouldn’t carry a fraction of the number of passengers as first of all it would be for intercity service and secondly it completely avoids the city center and goes to the airport instead, which just isn’t where most people are going, they are going to the city center.

    These route would be a very hard sell to the public as they would ask why are you just building an expensive route parallel to Metrolink for the same cost, but to carry less people! Folks from the Enterprise would be annoyed at being moved out of Connolly and being dumped in Hueston instead.

    The AIRR instead decided to go with an East - West tunnel, which I have questions about, but does make more sense then this idea because:

    • Half the tunnel length so half the cost
    • Enterprise stays in Connolly
    • Folks from Cork/Limerick etc. can be brought into the city center, either to the Connolly/Docklands area and potentially pass through an even more central underground station. Would be very popular and would actually improve intercity services.
    • Easy one stop change to Metrolink to the airport.
    • You could also route the Enterprise into this tunnel to stop at this central station too and create a proper Cork the Belfast service if you wanted.
    • You could continue the trains from Cork up the Northern quad track and along a Clongriffin to Airport link if you wanted too in future.

    Same problem as above, you are just replicating Metrolink again and at massive cost. Much more expensive then just quad tracking the Northern line and for very little extra benefit. Would have a very poor CBA.

    Like CPO’ing some houses for quad tracking isn’t that big a deal. We are CPO’ing an entire apartment building and swimming pool for Metrolink, so isn’t really a reason not to do something.

    The AIRR estimates quad tracking the Northern line at 1 billion, a Metrolink length tunnel is going to be closer to 10 billion. Much easier to get a positive CBA at 1 billion then 10 billion obviously.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,242 ✭✭✭gjim


    We need to be realistic here on spending even 1 billion on knocking 20 minutes off a service which carries 1m passenger trips per year. The northern line is effectively dedicated to DART in terms of capacity and movement patterns as it is.


    Basic rough arithmetic - 1B capital spend equates to between 50 to 100 million euro per year depending on the cost of financing formula you use. That’s 50 to 100 euro per passenger trip to save 20 minutes which is a multiple of the ticket price. Forget about spending multiple billions - it would be cheaper to offer a free helicopter service between the two cities.

    Even if the time saving resulted in a doubling of ridership (and I don’t see where this new demand would come from), intercity numbers just cannot justify a spend like this when there are 200 times as many commuters in the city itself and suburbs spending an hour or more commuting every day.


    Sort out being able to get around the city and its environs efficiently first, then we can start thinking about tunnels and infrastructure to improve journey times for intercity passengers.



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 23,163 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Exactly! Talking about spending billions on tunnels for intercity services, when we don't have even one Metro tunnel, is definitely putting your priorities in the completely wrong place IMO.

    We need to focus first on getting Metrolink, DART+ and BusConnects done first, then probably a bunch more Luas lines, maybe another Metroline or two, etc.

    Even within the world of intercity travel, it isn't a priority. I don't know how we can talk about this seriously when the Enterprise isn't even hourly! When we have zero electrified intercity lines! Hell some intercity lines are still single track!

    We need to focus on fixing the core intercity service first. Belfast/Galway/Limerick to hourly service, Cork to 30 minutes. Electrify the core network, double track where needed, 200km/h service, etc.

    We need to get the basics right first, get the low hanging fruit done first.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,371 ✭✭✭markpb


    I haven’t seen anyone here say that we shouldn’t do MetroLink or Bus Connects or Dart+. There’s no need to invent arguments.

    There’s also no need for a hypothetical tunnel to start at Drogheda or end at Heuston and there’s no need to exclude suburban traffic from it either. Those are all arguments you’ve invented to make it sound implausible.

    What I find implausible is that anyone could think quad tracking the existing line will be straightforward. If it ever happens, which I doubt, it will be far more expensive than currently predicted and face endless delays caused by all the potential CPOs, each one having to be planned, costed, executed and potentially fought in court individually. Demolishing two buildings for MetroLink will be easy in comparison.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 655 ✭✭✭loco_scolo


    3million people live in counties Down, Antrim, Armagh, Louth and Dublin. Assuming only 1million annual journeys on the corridor is ridiculous. That's only 3000 journeys per day.

    Just to compare, Intercity services in/out of Heuston have 24000 journeys per day. I think it's safe to say there is major untapped demand there. The North and South are moving in one clear direction and that needs to be supported by proper infrastructure.

    The economic potential of the corridor is enormous. Your rough CBA is wildly off.

    Post edited by loco_scolo on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,972 ✭✭✭✭Zebra3


    Can you post a CBA that would would show it is viable?



  • Registered Users Posts: 70 ✭✭The Mathematician


    Yes, most posters seem to be focussing on Belfast, but the main benefit I see would be for places such as Balbriggan and Drogheda. Drogheda is too far out to be properly served by an inner-suburban stopping service. Four tracking would enable the services to be de-coupled into an inner-suburban stopping service to Malahide and Howth, say, and an outer-suburban service to Drogheda and maybe Dundalk, with first stop Malahide. It would also give the option of a pretty fast service from Navan.



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 23,163 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    I'm not inventing anything, I'm reading the All Island Rail Review. You know the report put together by Irish Rail and the other experts in rail! You are the one making things up with a tunnel from Malahide!

    To be clear, I didn't say you would need to tunnel from Drogheda! But that the route considered by the AIRR was a new line from Drogheda to Dublin Airport and onto Heuston. They don't go into detail about it, but I'd assume it would be an above ground line from Drogheda to either Swords or the Airport, go underground at the airport, maybe pop up again south of the Airport but go underground again at the outskirts of the city to head to Heuston.

    Basically it would replicate Metrolink, running almost parallel with it and cost as much.

    Now you said a tunnel from Malahide. But that doesn't really solve the problem as the AIRR says they need to quad track or separate the services all the way to Drogheda, not just Malahide.

    I'm not sure what sort of Malahide tunnel you are suggesting, but a Malahide to say Clontarf Road tunnel would be 11km, longer then Metrolink at 9km and the proposed DART+ Tunnel at 7km.

    Clongriffin to Clontarf Road might make more sense at 7km, you would need to then combine it with the proposed new line from Clongriffin to Drogheda. You'd be looking at about 7 to 8 billion all in for this.

    What the AIRR suggests is the following:

    • Quad tracking from Dublin to Clongriffin, 1 Billion
    • A new line from Clongriffin to Drogheda basically following the M1, cost 1 billion.

    Seriously just go read the AIRR, it is all in there.



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 23,163 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    That is exactly what DART+ North is for. It is the bring DART to Drogheda and to serve the growing population there.

    There won't be a separate Drogheda/Balbriggan outer-suburban service, that isn't realistic and these towns really aren't that far from Dublin to require that.



  • Registered Users Posts: 70 ✭✭The Mathematician


    Well yes, they don't 'require it' in the sense that a slow service can be run to them without four tracking, but if we want to provide a game changing service, then it is necessary. Even as things stand, the combined population of Navan and Drogheda on their own is 80,000, and they are at an ideal distance from Dublin for a fast commuter service. They are the sort of towns where we should be building to solve the housing crisis.



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  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 23,163 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Unfortunately towns 40km from Dublin aren't the "ideal". Far from it, that would be considered a long distance commute in most countries and not something to be encouraged.

    DART+ will be a game changer as it will greatly increase both the frequency and capacity both to Drogheda, but also the various towns much closer to Dublin which are the "ideal" commuting distance from Dublin.

    I'm not at all saying we shouldn't quad track, we will need to await the outcome of the upcoming report into quad tracking. I am however saying spending billions on tunnels just to save a few minutes off Dublin to Drogheda or Dublin to Belfast isn't at all realistic.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,457 ✭✭✭SharkMX




  • Registered Users Posts: 70 ✭✭The Mathematician


    I didn't mention anything about tunnels, I was talking about four tracking the line we have.

    If it is not an ideal distance for commuting then we should not be doing anything. If we are doing something, then presumably it is because it is considered to be an ideal distance for commuting. Of course we will have to wait until we get the report, but my hunch is that if we compare the cost of four tracking per person in the catchment area of the line past Malahide to the cost per person in the catchment area of the Metro (and I am certainly not saying the Metro should not be built), then it will look to be a bargain.

    It is not only about time saved, although that will be far more than a few minutes. At the moment, DARTs take 30 minutes to Malahide, and there is no reason this couldn't be cut to under 15 minutes for a non-stop train. That works out at a saving of over 30 minutes each and every day for all commuters past Malahide. Another important benefit will be the robustness of the service. Four tracks allow for trains to keep running if there is a breakdown, and also allow for easier track maintenance.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,343 ✭✭✭Consonata


    It's probably less about shaving a few minutes off and more about capacity right? Same issue that we're running into with the Rosslare situation, IÉ want to get IC's off the mainline where possible and into termini, by quading like they're doing with Dart+ West, or by terminating services outside the city, like what they want to do with Rosslare services at Greystones/Bray.If we want to get a Hourly or even hypothetically a half horuly Belfast service at peak in the future, that likely isn't going to work if we want to also run an efficient high capacity Dart+ North.



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 23,163 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Yes, I agree completely. It is more about separating services and maximising capacity of the route. They can probably squeeze an hourly Enterprise through here, this line isn't as constrained as the Wexford line. But yes, long term they need to be separated to reach higher levels of operation like they are doing on the Kildare line.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 10,673 ✭✭✭✭MJohnston


    This is a real laymans drive-by-commenting here but in my experience, the Enterprise is far more often delayed in the North approaching Belfast than it is in the Dublin area.



  • Registered Users Posts: 161 ✭✭ArcadiaJunction


    <quote>The whole point of this study is to assess the options, and report back on them</quote>

    and then politicans and media set about to make sure none of them happen.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,242 ✭✭✭gjim


    You keep repeating this 3 million number but it's just not relevant. What's relevant is numbers in the line's catchment area AND who have a need to get to somewhere else served by the route.

    We're not talking about building a service where none currently exists, we're talking about a big spend, a lot of disruption and (most annoying for me) a big diversion of resources away from far more critical issues with PT in Ireland to knock 20 minutes off a service that currently exists and is available to passengers who need it.

    There is nothing "ridiculous" about the 3000/day figure - that's the ACTUAL number of average passenger journeys per day on this route according to official rail statistics. I've included a doubling of numbers in my rough CBA earlier even though I don't see where these extra passengers would come from. I could include a quadrupling and it would still look silly in terms of CBA.

    There are far more pressing issues for Irish public transport. By a rough calculation, there is about 8 human life years wasted PER DAY just in terms of the difference between commute times in Dublin and the European average for a city of Dublin's size. That's nearly 3000 years of life wasted every year. This is a genuine human tragedy in my opinion. Faster intercity is a future "nice-to-have" compared to doing something to alleviate the misery of the daily commute for 100s of thousands of city dwellers across the country.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,009 ✭✭✭Charles Babbage


    Why shouldn't there be, having PT with 20+ stops means that it is not time effective?

    Perhaps there could be express services to Balbriggan, Drogheda and Dundalk or even Newry, but then these would be trapped behind the stop everywhere trains.



  • Registered Users Posts: 655 ✭✭✭loco_scolo


    By that logic, we should stop investing a penny in every last corner of Ireland and focus solely on Dublin for the next 100years. Utterly ridiculous logic.

    I mentioned 3million twice actually. You ignored the comment the first time, then proceeded to produce a rough CBA using the same 3000 daily number you already quoted. You conveniently ignored my point on Heuston Intercity patronage of 24000 per day, which cover a much larger area and distance. Clearly there's enormous untapped potential on the northern corridor.

    Just to be clear, I am not suggesting a new intercity tunnel. 4 tracking, or significant sections of 4 track is the best solution, hence why they've allocated funding to access that option.

    You keep mentioning 20minutes, but the AIRR suggests Belfast-Dublin journey times of 1hr 10minutes, a 50-60minute saving.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,242 ✭✭✭gjim


    "By that logic, we should stop investing a penny in every last corner of Ireland and focus solely on Dublin for the next 100years. Utterly ridiculous logic."

    It's ridiculous because it's your "logic" not mine.

    It's nothing to do with "logic" anyway, it's just standard practice when faced with the common situation where we do not have the resources nor budget to build everything at once. So when presented with a multitude of options which cannot be done all at once, the standard practice is to quantify the costs and benefits of each one.

    I ignored the 3 million comment because it's just daft to try to define potential customers based on county boundaries and county populations. There's actually some science to calculating first catchment area and then, with an idea of how many people COULD access the service, you work out how many actually have a need for the service.

    I also ignored the Hueston numbers comment again because it's just some arbitrary number you pulled out with absolutely no reasoning on where this 6 fold increase in passengers on the Enterprise would come from.

    The AIRR time is predicated on electrification and significant improvements for the entire route NOT for 4 tracking north of Connolly which is what is being discussed. It would require breaking some pretty fundamental physical laws if 4-tracking 15 or 20% of the route could half the journey time.



  • Registered Users Posts: 655 ✭✭✭loco_scolo


    No one is suggesting doing everything all at once. You've suggested not 4 tracking the Dublin-Belfast axis until everything else is done, which is bonkers. This is a vital piece to connect the 2 largest cities in Ireland, which have historically been poorly connected - socially, culturally and politically. However this is changing very quickly.

    You based your logic on current train numbers of 3000 per day which is nonsense. There are 7 daily trains in each direction between Dublin and Belfast. This compares to 21 direct trains daily between Cork, Limerick and Waterford, with additional trains on top of that to Kildare, Portlaoise, Galway etc.

    The untapped potential of the northern corridor is enormous and comparing to the southern corridor is extremely relevant.

    You just need to look at a population density map to see how much potential there is on this corridor.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,812 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    A 4 tracking project could double the capacity of the coastal DART. There'd be no barrier to running Drogheda to Dublin DART at 5 minute frequency or lower. The 4 tracking also allows the express tracks to move more inland serving the airport with intercity rail and it also offers a much more express commuter service from Drogheda to the city centre. You could forget about Belfast entirely and have Newry to Connolly express commuters taking less than am hour end to end



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,242 ✭✭✭gjim


    It wouldn't double it, not unless something like the DART tunnel is built. As it is, DART+ north will provide 9 DARTs per hour peak per direction between Clongriffen and Connolly - about a 6 minute frequency. There would be no way for the system to handle a doubling of this - 18 DARTs an hour (3:20 minute headway) arriving into Connolly?

    As it is currently used, the northern line is almost fully dedicated to DART - with the 3 other slots in the DART+N plan shared between commuter and the planned hourly enterprise. The commuter and enterprise services have to crawl between DARTs and match their speed (and all the stopping) - so it's the DARTs that degrade Enterprise and commuter performance, not the other way around.

    And because of this, the benefits of 4 tracking would accrue to Enterprise and commuter passengers almost exclusively with at best a couple of extra hourly slots for DART. That's what makes the business case difficult and that is why, every time they've looked at it, they've found something better to do with the money.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,343 ✭✭✭Consonata


    Could certainly effectively double it if they instead terminated Belfast/Dundalk Commuter in Spencer Dock. You don't need Dart Underground to achieve that. Connolly doesn't need to be a bottleneck here.



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