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Time for a zero refugee policy? - *Read OP for mod warnings - updated 11/5/24*

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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 277 ✭✭Guildenstern


    The trouble with programmes where the function is to give a fair and balanced view, there's no time to challenge comments such as that.

    Views differ as to the amount of empty properties, from 80,000 up to almost 200,000. To assert that so many are publicly owned, I'd struggle to accept that.

    Facts fall by the wayside when emotions take over.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,830 ✭✭✭ArthurDayne


    Well, nobody is really saying that IPA applicants are going to bring about a diverse utopia are they? If anyone did actually believe that, particularly anyone in positions of policymaking power, then IPA migration would be the favoured means of "bringing" foreigners into the country right? But it's not, and never has been in Ireland. The Ukraine crisis presented an unprecedented event whereby a war in Eastern Europe inevitably led to a surge in refugees across the rest of the continent.

    As for "encouraging" the war in Ukraine, one for another thread but I have listened to many arguments on this and have yet to hear one that would compel me to believe that Russia's invasion of Ukraine was anything other than the outcome of Putin's imperialist ideology married with a strategic economic interest in consolidating territorial continuity with the annexed Crimea.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,518 ✭✭✭rgossip30


    We bear the consequences of that war and the brainwashed ideology that bringing in refugees is the right thing to do . I wonder how many are actually from the war zones .

    Post edited by rgossip30 on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,453 ✭✭✭facehugger99


    I see one of the tabloids today running with a front page of how much we're spending on housing Ukrainian pets - €1m per month apparently.

    A relative of mine died last year from Motor Neurone disease. The Irish Motor Neurone Disease Association provides nurses to help family members care for their relatives. The nurses are amazing but there are not enough of them and they are spread way too thin. Most of the money used to provide services comes from fundraising efforts.

    In 2022 the Government provided funding of €214,000 to the Irish Motor Neurone Disease Association.


    What a country we have.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,392 ✭✭✭✭Furze99


    Did anyone hear our esteemed Minister for Justice being interviewed on Morning Ireland this morning. There will be no relief from this - we have just further formalised our obligations to take in more people. There is no immediate prospect of state accommodation centres - that's years away. We have made a few price enquiries re chartering planes to deport the small handful of those refused official entry but nothing more. We will not build detention camps and anyone arriving can just melt away into the general population for as long as they need to establish themselves. Basically she's doing nothing and we may all put up with it. You'd be better buying your adult children plane tickets and advise them to get out of this place.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,017 ✭✭✭✭_Kaiser_


    I turned on the radio this morning to hear yet another softball interview with her on Newstalk. There's nothing that I can see in this for Ireland or her citizens. We can't manage those already here, or use the political and practical options we have (and have always had) to enforce our laws and border, and yet we are supposed to take arguably the worse Minister for Justice in decades that bending the knee once again to the EU will make it all better?

    Colour me cynical!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,404 ✭✭✭✭Goldengirl


    " The Ukrainian war should never have been encouraged "

    How can you make that statement about the war ..here ?

    Anywhere?



  • Registered Users Posts: 690 ✭✭✭US3


    Show us 1 leader that called for peace there. Every single one has encouraged to prolong the war



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,847 ✭✭✭RobbieTheRobber




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,404 ✭✭✭✭Goldengirl


    I am not going to engage with this on this thread .



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,404 ✭✭✭✭Goldengirl


    As facehugger said Motor Neurone Disease Association vastly underfunded .

    As are Cancer Care services , Irish Hospice Association Parkinson's and many other health care agencies, and this is going on for years when we are meant to be ' awash with funds ' ..

    These are part of all the NGOs that some people here want to get rid of .

    It's not till you need their help that you realise how necessary they are .



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,017 ✭✭✭✭_Kaiser_


    Even more important then that we impose limits or stronger oversight on NGOs whose only reason for being is to undermine our immigration policies and controls. Just look at all the money spent on this issue over even the last 2 years.

    Think about what could be done if that money was spent on the far more worthwhile issues you mention - rather than just encouraging/importing/legally advising even more randomers to put those services and all the others under pressure!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,404 ✭✭✭✭Goldengirl


    I agree more should be spent on NGOS who engage and help people in this country .

    I have said this repeatedly on this thread so I am not going to print off that list for people again

    .We are all adults here or should know who works for who in our society , so those who continue to bash NGOs generally , without stating of whom they are talking are just on a silly windup, afaiac

    Our country would not function without many and it's the same in many western countries so saying it's just 'Ireland ' or our government is just more silly stuff .

    If you want to discuss particular named NGOs , how much they get, and what they spend it on or not , be my guest .

    But please spare me the bleeding heart stuff about services in this country without acknowledging the good that so many NGOs do .



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,017 ✭✭✭✭_Kaiser_


    To be fair GG, it's very obvious what NGOs people refer to when using the term in an immigration thread - just as it's equally clear that when people talk about the problems with immigration, they aren't referring to legal migrants who come here honestly and with skills to offer, jobs to start, and the ability to support themselves while also positively integrating into their new communities.

    This is not in question. I'm not sure why you think otherwise?

    However.. I WILL say that we have seen numerous examples of charity/NGO organisations that have been operated with, let's say, poor Governance and decision-making, or where legitimate questions are asked about whether most of the money makes it to those who it was donated in support of, or into the paycheques/expense accounts of staff.

    Again this isn't in question either. The only ones who seem to be muddying the waters are those who are trying to obfuscate the very different cases involved.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,404 ✭✭✭✭Goldengirl


    Where did I mention other or legal migrants in my post ?

    I mentioned health and disability ?

    Sounds like you are mixing me up with someone else or muddying the waters yourself there !

    Also if you are alluding to poor governance you cannot throw out general accusations ..name and shame ..and some proof to back up your comments please !

    Otherwise this is just a twisty ,NGO bashing exercise



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,404 ✭✭✭✭Goldengirl


    And " to be fair " @_Kaiser_ ,

    It's not clear who some are talking about , just as your post above ?

    And then it leaves a general impression of ALL NGOs being corrupt or bloated which is vastly the opposite of true.

    Most do excellent work on a shoestring .And could do more if they had more .



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,017 ✭✭✭✭_Kaiser_


    Ah now GG, come on… you know exactly what I mean/you're at.

    You post complaining about people dismissing the work of good, worthwhile NGOs alongside NGO's involved in immigration (which no-one has done except yourself as far as I've seen?), and then you try to back away from it when I point out the differences?

    Then you're trying to claim ignorance of well-publicised scandals and reports of financial irregularities in the charity/NGO sector? Which again isn't saying ALL charities or NGOs fit this description, but there's no point in pretending it didn't/doesn't happen either.

    Really?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,404 ✭✭✭✭Goldengirl


    That's not true .

    Whenever people post about NGOs here its stated ALL , or never the actual NGO in particular they have a problem with .

    All I ask is that people be specific , name the NGO , post the problems and evidence instead of random opinion or conjecture .

    This is some people's livelihoods and life's work they are libelling, so its incumbent on posters to be very specific.

    "Then you're trying to claim ignorance of well-publicised scandals and reports"

    Now that is a Big Fat Lie ...where have I said that ?!

    Of course scandals do and have happened, same as anywhere else . Some years ago and complete changes in mission and ethos as well as those at the top of those charities have been instigated sometimes by the charities themselves or by government.

    You are talking about a handful but of course by not being specific you tar every NGO !

    But show me where those issues have not been dealt with and good governance proven before funding is reinstated ?

    That's where I am at, Kaiser. I am tired of posters that soapbox but can't back up a single thing they say or aren't bothered to when they are posting half truths with impunity anonymously online .



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,847 ✭✭✭RobbieTheRobber


    You are having a laugh here. This thread is littered with NGO conspiracy posts.

    Use the search function yourself, you would have to be joking to pretend there aren't plenty of posters who post conspiracy accusations at all NGOs in this very thread.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,404 ✭✭✭✭Goldengirl


    Thing is, it is a conspiracy theory that is being disseminated by certain groups who would benefit from your ordinary person with an issue ,( health disability , gender or racial inequalities, in this case its asylum seekers and especially Ukrainians at the moment ) not having access to support, advice and advocacy .

    IIt's not just here on this thread its worldwide.

    Some NGOs are being defunded in countries that gave right wing governments.

    We all know who would benefit from Ukrainians not being able to seek refuge safely in other countries and get help...also legitimate aid workers and NGIs delivering humanitarian aid being targeted .

    People then read this stuff about the "big bad evil " NGOs and the schtick that is printed in rags that support this action and don't differentiate between the different organisations . It is then dragged here from conspiracy fora and sites like X and Telegram and printed as FACT .

    That is why I ask for the names and objective evidence of what is being posted.

    Still waiting ....



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,518 ✭✭✭rgossip30


    We do have disproportionate number of NGO's who lobby government . The full social welfare for Ukrainians and payment for pets has NGO all over it .



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,404 ✭✭✭✭Goldengirl


    I don't know but whoever sighed off on that needs their heads examined , awful stuff .

    Some are disproportionately funded more than others and it is really surprising the ones that don't get much but still do amazing work .

    We all know who are getting all the funding with this government and it is not a good thing .

    SSshhhh..



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,847 ✭✭✭RobbieTheRobber


    🤣🤣🤣🤣

    Yeah **** the IMND and their lobbying of government. Am I right rgossip?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,518 ✭✭✭rgossip30




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,518 ✭✭✭rgossip30


    I was referring to lobbying for asylum seekers and refugees can you read .



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,392 ✭✭✭✭Furze99


    We heard of the difficulties at Crooksling recently in south Co.Dublin. Trouble is apparently now brewing around the Blessington area and specifically at a former corporate type conference facility called Kippure House. Locals are reporting on facebook that there is a lot of traffic to and fro from the site, which is behind locked gates. Rather shocking though are photos of what looks like significant amounts of blocks of housing that are being constructed. There have been no planning applications apparently and as many locals are pointing out, Wicklow is one of the most difficult counties to get planning permission for.

    Local county councillor Gerry O'Neill has advised as follows "This was brought to my attention just over a week ago and with regards the housing units I was informed about 4 weeks ago. I immediately contacted enforcement in WCC and understand there are buildings in place without planning permission. I also contacted Minister O'Gorman . This is a very serious matter and over the past few weeks I have been contacted by quite a few people in the Kilbride area who are very concerned. I help many people seeking planning for one-off housing and know how difficult it can be...and then this! I will have updates within the next week or so. I am also arranging a Public Meeting within the next 2 weeks and will publicise same."



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,847 ✭✭✭RobbieTheRobber


    "We do have disproportionate number of NGO's who lobby government."

    No you were referring the nebulous and more conspiratorial "NGO's" you didn't specify. It might in fact be much easier if you actually identify a particular NGO you have issue with rather than use vague accusatory language at all NGOs.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,847 ✭✭✭RobbieTheRobber


    Is the attached a list of NGOs you dislike?

    I mean its more than a list of NGOs but do you dislike them all or what was I supposed to use the list for?

    Notable mentions from your list for the;

    Citizens Information (Citzens disinformation amirite)

    Office of the Ombudsman (The NWO man)

    The Irish Red Cross (Isn't it always suspicious how the red cross show up in warzones?)

    Free Legal Advice Centre (I cant believe these f words are offering free legal advice, completely unbelievable. Has someone thought about the constitution and <insert reference to constitutional referendum result>)

    That isn't the end of the notable mentions but I am only on page five and the document is twenty eight pages long and I cant keep this joke going.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,678 ✭✭✭prunudo


    why on thread about immigration, would posters be complaining about the IMNDA, its fairly obvious its asylum related NGO's they're referring too.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,678 ✭✭✭prunudo


    I hadn't heard about Kippure house, they're doing same nearby to me. Totally underhanded tactics by the department. Going behind the backs of elected officials and council staff.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,847 ✭✭✭RobbieTheRobber


    I think you should check out the list of "NGO's" who help asylum seekers as provided by rgossip before saying that.

    Would the IMNDA help a refugee with motor neuron disease?

    I'm not sure they would refuse to help so seemingly that might make them an issue for rgossip based on the list provided.

    https://www.unhcr.org/ie/sites/en-ie/files/legacy-pdf/60daf1bb4.pdf



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,046 ✭✭✭Gen.Zhukov


    Kippure House/Estate is owned by Quanta Capital who are heavily involved in the AS industry already

    'Goldstein Property also owns premises in East Wall and at Airways Industrial Estate, Santry, which have also been used to accommodate persons claiming International Protection.

    One of the directors of Quanta Capital, Eoghan Coughlan, is also listed as a director of Goldstein Holdings Limited, registered in the Isle of Man, and Goldstein Properties UK. 

    Barrister Joe Christle is also registered as one of the directors of Goldstein Properties UK and the founder and CEO of Quanta Capital, Mel Sutcliffe is listed as a “person of significant control” in the company. 

    Christle is also currently the Chair of Quanta Capital. Happily, and surely a sign that “past dissensions” have been set aside, Christle and Sutcliffe, two scions of legendary Dublin republican families, now have on their advisory board Lady Alice de la Poer Beresford

    Lady Alice oversees the Quanta-owned Kippure estate and Kippure Lodge which provides accommodation for asylum seekers and is managed by another company that is connected to the Ballsbridge principals'. 

    https://gript.ie/who-are-the-companies-who-regard-ballsbridge-and-other-asylum-centres-as-prime-investments/

    As a fella on the VM TV show the other night said - "follow the money"

    Why wouldn't you come to Ireland and trash your passport when you may get accommodated somewhere like Kippure Estate -

    Tripadvisor - "Kippure Estate is a luxury event venue, set within our 250 acre estate surrounded by the spectacular views of the Wicklow Mountains. Our beautiful estate comprises of our purpose built wedding pavilion, river side church, guest houses, traditional Irish bar and conference centre all located just 15 minutes from Blessington…"



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,392 ✭✭✭✭Furze99


    Well I suspect the crap is about to hit the fan in Kippure Estate. It looks as if a substantial block of housing has been erected but not yet completed and all without planning permission. Could the owners have been betting on claiming retention after it's built and appealing to the department for support? Reckless if the case as you couldn't possibly hide that degree of building activity. Maybe the council will now move to approve? Who knows.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,404 ✭✭✭✭Goldengirl


    Nope .

    Its not obvious what is being complained about. And is tarring all NGOs non specifically.

    Is it to much to ask on a thread of over 10,000 posts that people follow some sort of system which is fair to everybody posting ?

    ..Name and link to issue if stating as a matter of fact .

    ..If it's opinion then say that and everyone can take it or leave it .

    I thought that was the standard expected ,🤔



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,706 ✭✭✭Damien360


    I was at a wedding there a few years ago and there were houses for accommodation there then. They were very much in disrepair. Did they add more houses ? It backs on to a woodland so not sure where they could fit it unless you build where they put the marquee for weddings which was a small space on a small hill.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,046 ✭✭✭Gen.Zhukov


    Is it not the case that all planning permission rules go out the window when it comes to housing the special ones?

    Planning permission will not be required to convert buildings to house refugees for the next two years due to “unprecedented numbers” seeking protection in Ireland, Minister of State for Housing Malcolm Noonan has told an Oireachtas housing committee.

    “This temporary change of use planning exemption will assist the Minister for Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth and his Department in providing much needed accommodation for persons seeking international protection at a time where there is unprecedented demand for their services.”

    The move would enable the use of a “wide list of buildings and structures to accommodate or support persons seeking international protection,” he said. However, the exemption would not apply to the use of protected structures if the conversion would “materially affect” the building.

    The amendment will expire on December 31st 2024, with the use of the buildings to house refugees ending at this point, he said.

    https://www.irishtimes.com/ireland/housing-planning/2022/11/17/no-planning-permission-needed-for-two-years-on-converting-buildings-to-house-ukrainian-refugees/

    That headline from the IT is a tad misleading as it seems to relate more to IPAs than UA refugees



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,392 ✭✭✭✭Furze99


    There are recently taken photos on Facebook that show a block of new buildings, shells built not finished, on a construction site and apparently what is raw sewage flowing into the Liffey. It's said there that the owners could be taking in near €7 million annually for provision of emergency accommodation services. But local county councillors are getting the heat now from disgruntled Wicklow residents who've found it very hard/ impossible to get planning for their children etc. So there'll likely be a lot more clarity in a week or two at which point the national media will doubtless get involved.

    The key here is that the above provision is for the conversion of existing buildings. Apparently modular i.e. temporary buildings also fall under this exemption. What is being constructed at Kippure Estate are permanent dwellings, that's clear from the photos.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,017 ✭✭✭✭_Kaiser_


    I'm belatedly watching that "is Ireland Full?" programme on Virgin here at the moment and on balance, I'm surprised that the concerns and questions were given air time, rather than just the advocates/NGOs/politicians.

    Also interesting is the lack of an overarching narrative/narration from the programme makers as you'd get with RTE. Instead it's letting the interviewees (for and against) have their say in their own words. Put the arguments out there and let the audience hear both sides without a bias over the top.

    More of this is needed in this country. Not just on this issue, but a host of others. It's a pity we can't rely on our State broadcaster to do it but fair play to Virgin for filling that gap.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,518 ✭✭✭rgossip30




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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,455 ✭✭✭Patrick2010


    There’s a classic tactic done by a number of posters to derail the thread by introducing a side issue, as in here bringing in NGOS dealing with motor neurone disease in a thread discussing immigration



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,780 ✭✭✭Floppybits


    Standard practice since the start of this immigration debacle. It used to be lumping in legimate immigrants, who are here on visa's and are most welcome with the chancers turning up at the airport and claiming they have no documents.p



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,404 ✭✭✭✭Goldengirl


    Those articles are written by Gript .

    Gript does a piece almost every day slagging off NGOs .

    No wonder you found them there 😁



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,401 ✭✭✭Vote4Squirrels


    It balances nicely with the nauseating hagiography of the New To The Parish stories.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,404 ✭✭✭✭Goldengirl


    The subject was brought up by this poster on the side against , discussing " NGOspheres "!

    If you don't like the answers don't ask the question .



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,404 ✭✭✭✭Goldengirl


    Yes but of those articles only one was linked here as an example .

    Gript however is a constant companion to posters here wanting to make an ill informed , unverifiable and biased point

    Wait now and I will link a New to the Parish every single time I am making a point here !



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,404 ✭✭✭✭Goldengirl


    On the contrary it is standard practice to refute said ' lumping together ' by posters who don't appear to be able to tell the difference between ' legal ' and 'illegal' immigration .



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,847 ✭✭✭RobbieTheRobber


    👆🏿🤣🤣🤣

    Who brought NGOs and the IMND to the discussion?

    It sure wasn't me.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,455 ✭✭✭Patrick2010




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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,518 ✭✭✭rgossip30


    So can you prove otherwise.So you don't like Links when they disagree with you .They help prove a point instead of opinionated clap trap .



This discussion has been closed.
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